220 Inwall - Plan

[jarhed]

Do you mean the ceiling joists Lon?

[bheron]

Hey Lon, good question. Can you explain your I beams more? pics?

In my case, with 2x12 normal floor joists, you would have to seal the ceiing in your fish room b/c, just as you say, the air would travel to the next room through the joists.

[Im Lon 2]

I say floor joist because they are for the main floor.

Here is a pic. this is how I have my ballast. Up and out of the way

[Im Lon 2]

NOTE: That yellow electric. wire was a temp line. It is no longer there. Matter of fact this picture is how it was setup during the move while everything was in the 100 stock tank waiting for the tank to be finished. I ran a dummy line to get power to that side of the basement. Every thing is much neater now, not all over the place.

[bheron]

ok, i think i see what youre saying. looks very similar to mine.

i think the difference is that you're storing stuff (ballast) up IN the joists whereas I wont so I'll be able to seal them off.

So, if you have something up there you'll need to put some kind of partition, one on each joist I'm guessing. These would be perpendicular to the ceiling.

[bheron]

Lon - PS: where the link to your tank thread? can't find it.

[Im Lon 2]

Here it is.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=555869

[weatherson]

-Got it. However, people have made comments in the past about getting outside air into your tank room for better skimmer performance and PH consistency. I was hoping to achieve this by drawing air both ways.

With a properly sized exhaust fan running 24/7 and a place for fresh air to enter the room adjacent to the tank room, you'd have ample PH leveling, fresh air passing through. It would be ideal having a fan moving outside air directly into the tank room but all it would take is one instance of some harmful chemical sprayed outside into this fan. The system described above would at least give it a chance to disperse and/or dissipate before entering the tank room. Sort of a buffer/safety area.

-Aside from a heat exchanger, what other options are there? Good point. I'll be blowing air out and it needs to be balanced out somehow. There will be a gap underneath the door, however my contractor suggested adding a small vent somewhere in the room to pull air from the main basement section to replace the air blown out.
1) is this not a good idea?
2) is it not a good idea, when the fan is not exhausting, to allow air from the tank room to get to the main basement area that will be finished and furnished?
3) B/c the finished area of the basement will be A/C''d, I was hoping this would draw cool air into the tank room. But then I'm thinking it will really tax my house AC.

When you say "a small vent", are you referring to a motorized fan vent? If so, that would work but is not needed as long as you intend on running the exhaust fan (on the outside wall) 24/7. As long as there's an area for the basement area's air to enter the tank room (gap under door or similar), the exhaust fan will do the rest. That is, so long as you get a strong, quality fan with the strength to move the air properly. The amount of air moved doesn't have to be huricane force, just enough to replenish and evacuate the humid air. A variable sped exhaust fan would be ideal so you could "dial it in" and enable you to find the optimal amount of air movement. Not enough... less oxygen and more humid. Too much... needless waste of air conditioned/heated house air.

- I really want to do this. And am very worried. HAvent thought about it but figured I would build some kind of casing around them all, with access doors. But it would have to be waterproof and simple enough for me to build!

Could be as simple as a wooden box structure with a hinged door for access. Seal it well with paint or spar varnish and run a bead of caulking at the box to wall joint. Then place foam rubber, stick-on window insulation strips all around the door to box joint. That should make it air tight. Be careful of whether the electrical items need ventilation though. If so, never mind.

- This sounds like a much better idea than I have so far, but really sounds way over my head. Before I combust trying to figure it out, let me tell you what my contractor and I talked about this morning before work and see if it still falls into the "shim degrading" issue....

I still feel it's better to adjust the stand for floor imperfections instead of shimming it up. It's really quite simple to do. Place the stand at its intended location, slide shims under the areas where it's not touching the floor but don't raise the stand any higher so it's not touching the floor. You'll want the area where it rests on the floor (the floor's high spots) to still contact the stand. Make sure it's properly leveled and shim where needed to do so. Then take a compass with a pencil on one side and open it so the gap between the pencil tip and the other tip is equal to the largest gap between the floor and stand. Then make a line around the stand by running the compass tip along the floor with the pencil tip against the outside edge of the stand. Below this line is the section of wood that needs to be removed. Once removed (plane, saw, file, sand or whatever), the stand will then form fit the imperfections of the floor while having the top properly leveled. Then build the wall around this and secure them together for added support.

I hope that makes sense and you are welcome. And yes, I think I have manipulated the GNP in a negative way with that lengthy thread.

Joseph

[bheron]

I'm getting things now. Must be the stiff drink I had at lunch. Kidding.

Ok...

"With a properly sized exhaust fan running 24/7 and a place for fresh air to enter the room adjacent to the tank room, you'd have ample PH leveling, fresh air passing through. ".

- I'm really glad I talked to you about this. I was quite surprised to learn about it when someone suggested running a fresh air source directly to my skimmer. It makes sense. However, the idea of something harmful in the outside getting in isnt worth the risk. Thanks.


"When you say "a small vent", are you referring to a motorized fan vent?"
- No motor. Just a slotted/slitted metal plate - you know, used for return vents? If we have some space under the door, it might not be needed. As long as there's no risk of saltwater air damaging anything when the air is going "out" when either the fan is off and/or air pressure from the other room is pulling it out, then I'll probably have him put it in.


[b]"A variable sped exhaust fan would be ideal so you could "dial it in" and enable you to find the optimal amount of air movement. Not enough... less oxygen and more humid. Too much... needless waste of air conditioned/heated house air. "[\b]

- I'll be sure to get a variable exhaust for that reason. I'll have to play with it until I find the right balance. Thx


"Could be as simple as a wooden box structure with a hinged door for access. Seal it well with paint or spar varnish and run a bead of caulking at the box to wall joint. Then place foam rubber, stick-on window insulation strips all around the door to box joint. That should make it air tight. Be careful of whether the electrical items need ventilation though. If so, never mind."

(Copying and pasting right into my master document thank you You will retain all copyrights on that one.)


"Place the stand at its intended location, slide shims under the areas where it's not touching the floor but don't raise the stand any higher so it's not touching the floor. You'll want the area where it rests on the floor (the floor's high spots) to still contact the stand. Make sure it's properly leveled and shim where needed to do so. Then take a compass with a pencil on one side and open it so the gap between the pencil tip and the other tip is equal to the largest gap between the floor and stand. Then make a line around the stand by running the compass tip along the floor with the pencil tip against the outside edge of the stand. Below this line is the section of wood that needs to be removed. Once removed (plane, saw, file, sand or whatever), the stand will then form fit the imperfections of the floor while having the top properly leveled. Then build the wall around this and secure them together for added support."

- Ditto! Now I see what you mean. nice way to make something which sounded so difficult make perfect sense. I get it now. I agree, this will be much more sound. My only problem is getting and using the right tool. It does sound like a daunting task, especially since I had to borrow a chop saw for the project.

- plane: thats a shaver type tool that you maually push along the wood to work it smooth and level?
- saw: what kind? would a table saw work?
- file: maybe thats what I'm thinking of for a plane? maybe a plane is a "planer" saw?
- Sand: would work on the horizontals but might not on the vertical 2x4s

I think I could sand it down for awhile. On 2nd thought, my contractor and his team leave all of their equipment at my house the whole time, overnight. Maybe I can get my hands on his table saw!!!

I'll take a look at my options and come back with details. I'll also have pics of the current level and gaps.

"I hope that makes sense and you are welcome. And yes, I think I have manipulated the GNP in a negative way with that lengthy thread. "

- If the world has to pay a large price for my small project and long term happiness, so be it!

[weatherson]

"plane, saw, file, sand" were verbs in this case. I suppose it's going to depend on how much material you will need to remove. Unless there are waves of concrete in your floor , I would imagine the gap is minimal and a rasp, heavy grit sandpaper and a little muscle would solve the problem. I look forward to the photos.

Joseph

[bheron]

good point. there arent heavy waves in the floor, and the house is almost new constuction (3-4yrs old). I was on my hands and knees before construction and with a level and saw a small rise/bump in the floor.

Now that I think of it, the gaps between the stand and the floor are more than you'd expect with the floor. Maybe my stand ISNT as level as I think it is! I'm thinking the gap is at least a 1/4" on the worst side, maybe 1/2". Thats doesnt sound good.

I'll snap pics.

[bheron]

Off the wall question - in line with the above posts about leveling.


What if, instead of shims which can degrade over time, what is I used "slices" of 2x4? In other words, use the shim method but instead cut custom sized, one piece "2x4 shims" and wedge them underneath the stand?

Wouldnt that serve the same purpose of the shim, but be as stable and reliable as a regular 2x4?

[weatherson]

I think anything using aside from the original wood of the stand is a compromise. There's a risk involved using small pieces of wood in that the structural integrity is not there. Not to mention the moisture (you will at some point have a wet floor ) issues which will lead to deterioration. I'm just thinking long term here but I'm sure the shims will work for a while.

Umm... A half inch off?! Maybe a Saws-all? No really... that would do the job nicely. Your contractor leave one of those laying around?

Joseph

[bheron]

Joseph - point taken. I agree. Well, I just got home and took some pics of the stand level as is. Good news - wasnt as off as I suspected. Take a look at the below - maybe 1/4 at the worst.

Also: after seeing all the stand pics, do you think I should get rid of the plywood bottom? Its 1/2 plywood. I have it on there b/c I'm planning on putting my 75g glass tank underneath for the sump \/fuge and figured it would distribute the weight better. Let me know if you think I should take it off and just level the tank at the vertical posts.

Here's a pic of the most unlevel part of the stand (front right)



Not that bad.


Ok, I posted part of these before, but here's a complete photo diary of the construction of the stand...

[b]

Bottom frame first:



Then the uprights:




[IMG] http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...nkPics0007.jpg [/IMG]

Horizontals (in hindsight, I should've built this as one piece, like I did with the bottom horizontal frame. As a result, it was off level)



Nice even joints...



Trying to build it level...




Center upright supports



And finally the skin. I used 1/2" plywood here. Am debating on whether i need it on the bottom. Notice its on the INSIDE of the front and side faces, purposely.






And....the finished product, as it will be built into the wall...



Wel, I'm outta here for the holiday weekend. My wife is practically sitting in the car in the driveway leaning on the horn.

I'll give more details on the stand when I return.

Have a great holiday everyone!

[bheron]

Back from the weekend and was pondering the whole time a question I posted above about my new stand and leveling it:

- do you think I should get rid of the plywood bottom? Its 1/2 plywood. I have it on there b/c I'm planning on putting my 75g glass tank underneath for the sump/fuge and figured it would distribute the weight better. Let me know if you think I should take it off and just level the tank at the vertical posts.

[weatherson]

My suggestion would be to take it off and place the sump on the bare floor if it will sit flat enough. If it doesn't, Styrofoam may work to make it do so but without the desired temp transfer. What's nice about placing the sump on the floor is that there will be some added cooling due to the contact area of the cooler cement. At least this is how mine works with an acrylic sump. And... I don't think the plywood there is doing much structurally and has a greater potential to end up rotting when flat on the floor. Water will tend to wick in between the wood and the cement.

Why it didn't before I don't know but a belt sander would work very well in your process of leveling the stand to the wavy floor. Just mark it as previously suggested and use the belt sander with heavy grit paper to sand away the excess wood.

Joseph

[bheron]

Joseph. I'm glad you recommend no plywood base. I've been leaning towards that. My sump (75g tank) is resting on the floor in a different part of the basement right now setup as the temporary holding tank



No problems so far with it sitting on the floor.

I've heard that before about the basement floor helping to keep things cooler.

I'll see if removing the plywood is any easier to level this thing. My basement contractor is talking about nailing the whole stand directly into the cement basement floor for stability since they'll be attaching the drywall directly to the stand.

Thanks.
Bryan

[NexDog]

Also, with all the spillage you'll definitely get, that plywood is going to rot quickly. On my plan, the concrete pad is smooth as a baby's bottom and hopefuly pretty level and the 65g sump sits on it bare.

[bheron]

Yea, I havent thought about this spillage issue before. The plywood is kind of weak to begin with - only 1/2". And not that great quality. Thats what I get for going cheap.

My cement basement is really smooth. And since its a new const, its in really good shape. Still, though, there are waves in it.

[bheron]

Come to think of it, do I even need the top piece of plywood? Since my tank only needs to be supported on the outside frame, I originally wasnt going to use any. But, I figured it would help even out / level any imperfections in the stand.

Thoughts?

[Im Lon 2]

Originally posted by bheron
But, I figured it would help even out / level any imperfections in the stand.

That would be enough reason for me to leave it. I don't think it will mater if you do or don't, But like you said if there are any imperfections it will take care of them.

You could always paint the stand with Kilz paint or an outdoor paint to prevent it from rotting. I wish I would have done this like jarhed did. His looks great!

[jarhed]

Thanks Lon!

Only thing is that mine isnt completely painted. I didnt paint the very bottom and now wish I did. There is almost always water on the floor, usually because of my own stupid goofs. At least most of the time they are not saltwater.

I just used a semi-gloss interior paint. Cheapest I could find. Works beautifully on the walls and the stand.

[Im Lon 2]

The only time I get water on my floor is when I put my hands in the tank and it drips when I pull them out. The top off is done by a float switch.

I'm thinking about putting a "T" on the return pump back to the tank, so I can hook up a On/Off valve on both sides of the "T". On the other side of the Valve have a Garden Hose hookup so I can drain the tank quickly for water changes. Then I will not have to worry about trying to start a Siphon. Right now it makes it tuff with the sump on the basement floor to start a siphon.

[bheron]

[bOnly thing is that mine isnt completely painted. I didnt paint the very bottom and now wish I did."[/b]

!! Man, thats a great point. I will be sure to do this as well. I've heard alot about this KILZ stuff.

[bheron]

Just an update with pics.

The contractors have now been here for a week and just about the whole basement is framed.

This morning we worked out the details around the tank stand - leveling and framing (see pics below).

Essentially, as mentioned above, I removed the plywood base. We're going to try to level it with custom shims cut from pressure treated wood (I know Joseph, you recommended we cut/shave/sand the base to make it even). Anyway, this is the route we've chosen and I think it'll work out ok.

Some pics:


Setting up:



Beginning the framing (see stand in back)



Side wall in Gym (tank in way back, behind HVAC)



Is this my assistant...or boss? Either way, she doesnt do any cutting and somehow makes all the rules!

(thanks for approving THIS project, dear

This is where we (they) are as of end of today - you can see they've begun framing out the stand and tank room...



Me, the proud future owner, standing tall behind my dream system...


( the stand is 42" high)

Looking into the tank room from the side door...



A closeup of how we're (they're) framing out the soffit...