DSB Related Journals, Newspaper Articles, ETC...

[Habib]

Jerel:

Hab I didn't realize there were so many Nakamuras

That's why I asked for more details such as period in which the paper was published and initials.

I think that all the Nakamura's in Japan have done something with sediments and and all dsiciplines of science has atleast some published papers by a Nakamura.

Any chance that your name is Jerel Nakamura?

[Bomber]

No it's Smith.

[gregt]

Habib, Didn't you know that Nakamura means "Bomber" in English.

[Bomber]

I was waiting on him to figure that out.

[Megalodon]

Very helpful thread!

[Yellotang]

Good, hopefully it continues as we find more factual documents and resources.

[Megalodon]

It's too bad Dr. Ron doesn't follow threads on other forums.

[Habib]

Originally posted by Bomber
No it's Smith.

Originally posted by gregt
Habib, Didn't you know that Nakamura means "Bomber" in English.

I should have thought about it.

Spanky Nakamura aka Jerel Bomber aka Mr. Smith.

[Bomber]

Smolders, A.J.P.; Lamers,L.P.M.; Moonen, M; Zwaga, K; Roelofs, J.G.M. 2001. Controlling phosphate release from phosphate-enriched sediments by adding various irons compounds. Biogeochemistry, 54(2): 219-228.

Ye, Y; Tam, N.F.Y; Wong, Y. S. 2001. Livestock Wastewater Treatment by a Mangrove Pot-cultivation System and the Effect of Salinity on the Nutrient Removal Efficiency. Marine Pollution Bulletin, 42(6): 512-520.

Nakamura, Y (1994). Effect of flow velocity on phosphate release from sediment. Water Science and Technology 30, 263-72

[Bomber]

I know this thread is just flying over most peoples heads.

[wizardgus®]

Yeah, but I like the breeze.

[Habib]

Originally posted by Bomber
Smolders, A.J.P.; Lamers,L.P.M.; Moonen, M; Zwaga, K; Roelofs, J.G.M. 2001. Controlling phosphate release from phosphate-enriched sediments by adding various irons compounds. Biogeochemistry, 54(2): 219-228.

Ye, Y; Tam, N.F.Y; Wong, Y. S. 2001. Livestock Wastewater Treatment by a Mangrove Pot-cultivation System and the Effect of Salinity on the Nutrient Removal Efficiency. Marine Pollution Bulletin, 42(6): 512-520.

Nakamura, Y (1994). Effect of flow velocity on phosphate release from sediment. Water Science and Technology 30, 263-72

You can find the abstract of the last reference in the previous page of this thread.

[SPC]

Originally posted by Bomber
I know this thread is just flying over most peoples heads.

Ah, then maybe someone needs to summarize what this information means in Reefkeeping On Line Magazine.
Steve

[Bomber]

That's easy. DSB's don't do what you were told they do and they do a lot of other things that you weren't told at all.

[Habib]

Originally posted by SPC
Ah, then maybe someone needs to summarize what this information means in Reefkeeping On Line Magazine.
Steve

I did write something this morning something and wanted to post but could not decide in which of the DSB threads.

It is something tentative but OK let me post it here for comments.

[Habib]

Here it is and does not go into much details.



From Ron's website. Bolding is mine.

Conclusion:

The installation of a live sand bed is easy, straight-forward, and inexpensive relative to almost all other aquarium purchases. Once established, such a bed will contribute much to the success of a reef tank by providing a biological filter with sufficient capacity to for most tanks. Additionally it will provide food for many of the suspension feeding animals such as small polyped stony corals. And, it will do this all with a minimum of care and expense.

I have seen many things in Ron's articles regarding DSB which IMO are incorrect.

There are also IMO recent publications which show that, if reduced nutrients or reduction of nutrients is what we want, a DSB might not be a good choice.

If such publications are not of use because they deal with natural reefs and such and not with aquariums then we need proofs that they behave differently and in such a way different that they don't have the drawbacks such as a acting as a buffer for nutrients and the constant release of nutrients such as phosphate from the aquarium sediments (=DSB).

So far I have no reasons to doubt they behave differently then in nature or have I seen anything which proves that they behave differently


Also from Ron's website (bolding is mine):

The only real problem with a sand bed is the reduction in diversity as the bed ages. This is caused by extinction and replacement problems because the volume of our beds is simply too small for some species to generate self-sustaining populations. This is remedied, by purchasing a detritivore or recharge kit or two every year or so to give a boost to the fauna.

So this basically says that the nutrients are released again after being bound in organisms (growth and multiplication).

IMO it also says that the productivity of a DSB should increase in time (detrivores die) and requires therefore an increasing amount of food for all the organisms (including bacteria) to meet their food demand in a DSB.

The detrivores don't die all of them at the same time and they actually seem to die because that is simply the reason why one needs to "recharge" them.
This (IMO) automatically implies that the capacity of each type of mechanism (e.g. bacteria and detrivores are different mechanisms) in breaking down and binding of nutrients/organics etc will fluctuate in time in an unpredictable way.

If this is correct a DSB is highly instable and there is a chance it might crash. The chance that such a DSB crash would occur will increase in time.

So if it does not happen today then the chance it will happen tomorrow is higher.

These are my tentative conclusion.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Habib
So this basically says that the nutrients are released again after being bound in organisms (growth and multiplication).
This (IMO) automatically implies that the capacity of each type of mechanism (e.g. bacteria and detrivores are different mechanisms) in breaking down and binding of nutrients/organics etc will fluctuate in time in an unpredictable way.

If this is correct a DSB is highly instable and there is a chance it might crash. The chance that such a DSB crash would occur will increase in time.

So if it does not happen today then the chance it will happen tomorrow is higher.

This is absolutely, positively, 100% correct. They flux just like in "nature" because in this respect nothing is any different. Habitat, species dynamics and colonization, nutrition (food) sources, etc - any one of these can cause species diversification.
Bacterial speciation alone can cause the sinking or releasing of PO4 and they are in a constant state of flux.

We know for a fact that bacterial degradation of sediments rapidly creates anoxic areas and these anoxic areas remobilize dissolved phosphate into the water column. We know for a fact that phosphate is stored in sediments and as these sediments oscillate between reduced and oxidized states, phosphate is released. We know for a fact that pools of oxidized sediments enhance the retention of phosphorous.

What else do we need to know?

[wizardgus®]

Ok, I'm following so many of these threads this might not be the right one...
We know for a fact that phosphate is stored in sediments and as these sediments oscillate between reduced and oxidized states, phosphate is released

Could this explain one of the quirks I have observed repeatedly in my refugium, which is the only DSB I have. I have seen where I go through periods of reduced growth in the Macros, as in nearly zero. Then I will go through period where it will fill the fuge in a couple weeks. I'll harvest, and it will either grow wildly again, or sit dormant.

My feeding regimen is pretty consistant, and I have been trying to determine what variable might be at work.

[Bomber]

Flux

[wizardgus®]

Originally posted by Bomber
Flux

I agree, but what do you think of my hypothesis?

[Bomber]

Originally posted by wizardgus
My feeding regimen is pretty consistant, and I have been trying to determine what variable might be at work.

It's just flux Jay. Bacterial flux.

As one type of bacteria dominates, uses up their food source and habitat, they create conditions for another type of bacteria, as they use up their sources they create another - and the cycle goes around and around.

Some systems do this really slowly, some faster. Some change.

Each time it does this it changes too. Sometimes its carbon, sometimes phosphorous compounds, sometimes just ammonium - something becomes limiting and it makes it change. It can even be O2 and Ph or iron or magnesium. Sometimes it's on a grand scale, sometimes localized.

[ldrhawke]

Interesting thread.......might as well jump. the water looks unpolluted. see what you have strted Bomber. This could be the death of DSB as we understood them.

I made these remarks to another forum

The question was asked. "Is the hydrogen sulphide I smell when stirring the DSB dangerous in my tank."

My response............

This is a quote from H2S exposure in industry. You can image what your coral and fish experience when exposed to it. if you have H2S in your DSB.....you have neither oxic or anoxic processing going on in the area it is present. It is the odor you smell if you open a sewer pipe full of waste sludge. Men have been quickly over come and died going into holding tanks or sewer lines with H2S. Although I have read the experts say no big deal in a salt water tank because it goes away quickly, I disagree. Also, the presents of H2S is telling you both the oxic and anoxic biological process are not working in the bed.


quote:
Hydrogen sulphide (H2S) itself has an offensive odour of "rotten eggs" at concentrations as low as 50 parts per billion by volume(ppbv) and is toxic at concentrations above 1000 parts per million by volume (ppmv). H2S is a health and safety hazard, and when combined with carbon dioxide (CO2) and water vapour (H2O), corrodes plant equipment such as boilers and piping, and can ruin power-generating equipment. Energy recovery from biogas and other waste streams, a common practice today, is hampered if H2S gas is present. High levels of H2S can also interfere with other processes such as killing useful bacteria in anaerobic digesters. Reducing H2S offers cost savings associated with less maintenance, increased process and energy efficiency, and reduced toxic emissions.



This is the reason why you need positive flow through a DSB to transport waste and food though the bed.

As we all know tank upset are often a chain reaction. H2S exposure may not kill everything, but once it kills a few more sensitive creatures, they die and the tank becomes over loaded, killing more and using up oxygen and finally even toughest creature left go belly up.

You shouldn't use any biological processing system that can easily start that chain reaction.....the conventional sugar sand DSB can easily start the H2S chain reaction of death even with the most attentive husbandry. It is not simply not being oxic or anoxic as it goes bad, is is now producing poision. All you need to do is read what even the "Experts" have experienced themselves when using what is often describe as the ultimate biological reef process, DSB.

[Yellotang]

I noticed when my 70 gallon sps tank was set up, that I feed heavily. That I was always getting large amounts of bubbles out of the sandbed. According to alot of people that was supposed to be happening because it was the nitrates being broken down to NO2.

But my SPS was having RTN issues towards the end of the tank and I think some or most of it was because of the DSB.

[Habib]

.....getting large amounts of bubbles out of the sandbed
According to alot of people that was supposed to be happening because it was the nitrates being broken down to NO2.


Bubbles can be any gas such as carbon dioxide, oxygen, hydrogen sulfide, nitrogen etc.

[SPC]

Originally posted by Habib

.....getting large amounts of bubbles out of the sandbed
According to alot of people that was supposed to be happening because it was the nitrates being broken down to NO2.


Bubbles can be any gas such as carbon dioxide, oxygen, hydrogen sulfide, nitrogen etc.

Or in my case alot of methane .
Steve