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#76
06/11/2007, 12:36 PM
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drsfostersmith definitely has a good deal on salt... $60 per bucket is a bit much IMHO. IO online is $31.99 for a 160gal bucket. They also have a 200g bucket of Oceanic salt for $39.99!!
Your cost (minus shipping) would be about $0.20 per gallon. Here's a weird question... Does your LFS sell pre-mixed saltwater? What is their price per gallon? Once you're finished with the formalin baths, your salt consumption should drastically reduce if you can get a few pounds of fully cured, non-infected LR (perhaps from the LFS). You would then be able to establish biological filtration in the QT tank while the main tank goes fallow. The cost of a few pieces of LR is probably going to be cheaper than 3 months of water changes. How many more formalin baths are you planning to do?
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Winter ski bum, summer reef bum. |
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#77
06/11/2007, 08:22 PM
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Sarah,
Get some sponge filters in the QT. Lots. Use the stuff for Aquaclears from Petco. Over a couple weeks it will go a long way in reducing the NH3. Measure NH3 daily. If you can keep it below .25 at your ph you can get by with the smaller WC %. You really only have to get through the first couple weeks. Then the bacteria will start to build up. Amquel or Prime will help too. Just be aware you may get false readings when using them. The key here is you must start to build up your bacteria base in the QT. Or get a couple lbs of LR from Paljets. He has a pretty good deal. Or Ocean Art is shutting down. They have lots of LR they are selling off. Been in the tanks for 4 yrs. Instant bio filter. Cheaper than $100s in salt. |
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#78
06/11/2007, 10:13 PM
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Only monitor amonia, WC as required to kep it under 0.25-0.5, get a hob filter or filter sponge, with some Cycle bacteria.
Prime/Amquel might confuse ammonia test
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2 ocelaris 1-1.5", 1 bandaii cardinal, 1 yellow watchman goby 1 pep. shrimp, 10 nas, 1 astrea , 1 cerrith snails Some softys PH 8.1, Alk 11, NH3/4, NO2, NO3 0, Temp 77-79F, SG 1.025 |
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#79
06/12/2007, 02:11 AM
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I am definitely not re-using the old bath, it gets tossed out after the bath. My firefish and bicolor died after the bath, I belive they were already too weak, and the stress put them over the edge. ON the up side, all other fish seem to be eating well, and the signs of brook are nearly gone. I plan to do a bath every other day, and do a total of 5 treatments, some suggest 3 treatments, any opinions?
Although it may seem to one poster that I am indecisive, I am simply thinking out loud on this forum and trying to get as much advice as possible before proceeding into previously uncharted territory. Secondly, I don't want to sell of all my stuff and go dry for a year or two. I've got great LR in my tank, and some stock I am not willing to part with, including 3 beautiful RBTA anemones. Buying the cheap salt from drfostersmith is a great idea, and that combined with trying to establish a biofilter in my tank will cut my costs and effort down dramatically. Thanks guys for the suggestions. I may look into getting some bio media from other reefer's healthy tanks. And I also may part with a few fish, but not all, keeping my very favorites, and focusing on keeping the best environment for them. I have read that doing 90% waterchanges is absolutely fine as long as the parameters match exactly. Including temp, salinity, & Ph. I can't see why this would be a problem with fish, if the parameters are the same. However, my preference would definitely be to NOT have to change this much water. As far as getting some beneficial bacteria in there, I thought it took quite a while to establish...like 4-6 weeks for cycle. Well it definitely cant hurt to try and establish bio filtration as soon as possible, and I will be buying a seachem test kit which measures "free ammonia", that is, only harmful ammonia. According to seachem, it is designed to give accurate results after using prime. The kit also includes a "total ammonia" test which is just good to know, how much is in there to begin with, both ammonia and the non-toxic form, ammonium. The seachem badge reflects harmful ammonia only, but is only a general "red flag" device, not for getting accurate mesaurments. I actually have to go and buy another seachem badge now...I think I screwed it up. I put pure ammonia on the sensor to try and test it out...bad idea. I know, what the he** was I thinking. I did that wondering if it really worked. Well needless to say, it hasn't worked right since...wont go back to yellow even in freshly mixed salt water. Some say putting it in vinegar will "reset" it. That won't work either, so I know its definitely ruined. After reading the instructions, it says to not touch the sensor with fingertips...oops again. I am learning much through trial and error these days... And as far as brooklynella, I've never seen such a fast acting lethal disease. My inital "wait it out response" was due to not knowing HOW LETHAL this disease is, I really thought it might be like ich or something, where they can fight it off. I did my research on the forum, finding out that a mass infection like this involves nearly 100% mortality in all infected fish, unless treated. You better bet I aint letting this bast*rd in my tank again. Or anything else...to the best of my ability. Of course, I have read stories of the 6-8wk QT fish that finally went in the display and still passed along a disease, but that is fairly rare I would think. Hopefully all reading this can learn from my experiences and avoid the same, as many people are underinformed on this disease.
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Sarah |
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#80
06/12/2007, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
The reason is there are a large number of other parameter besides ph, temp, and salinity that you CANNNOT test for, and changing 90% of the water every day or two will cause tremendous stress on the already weakened fish. A completely healthy fish will not do very well with 90% water changes and your dying fish will CERTAINLY not be able to handle it. anyway, people are giving you good advice but instead of just blindly taking advice why dont you do some back up research in a book or two, or even wetwebmedia. good luck to you Last edited by ralphie16; 06/12/2007 at 09:17 AM. |
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#81
06/12/2007, 07:04 PM
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90% isn't really bad If it has the same parameter
To test the badge you hold it over the ammonia, 
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2 ocelaris 1-1.5", 1 bandaii cardinal, 1 yellow watchman goby 1 pep. shrimp, 10 nas, 1 astrea , 1 cerrith snails Some softys PH 8.1, Alk 11, NH3/4, NO2, NO3 0, Temp 77-79F, SG 1.025 |
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#82
06/12/2007, 09:40 PM
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Yes icefire...I roasted the badge by putting ammomia directly on it, however when I hovered it over the vapors, it did not change, so I thought there was something wrong with it.
Perhaps it just needed to "break in" a little longer, the package says 2 days to adjust to the tank... Well I know next time.... As for the main tank, I am doing some major cleaning to try and remove as much detrius and possible parasite cysts. Last night I did a 50% water change and thouroghly vacumed the sand, which is only 1.5 inches. The great thing about my siphon hose is, it has enough power to suck up the detrius but will not suck up the sand....pretty great when it comes to cleaning the sand. The sand just falls back down, and the cloud of detrius goes up the tube. I am also going to do several more large water changes to get the nitrates down to zero or close to it since I have the opportunity. After adding livestock again, I will definitely keep up on the maintenence now that I have my life back to normal. I failed to mention what the underlying cause was of the "slacking" to begin with. I will be honest and say that I had a newborn 4 months ago, and my husband does not take care of the tank. It's really my tank. So although there really is no excuse to slacking, I guess having a newborn and three children under the age of three added to the problem, shall we say. And I have done quite a bit of research on waterchanges under different circumstances. The general concencious on this forum is large waterchanges are much better than subjecting the fish to ammonia, even at low levels. Ralphie, yes 90 percent is normally not advised without a good reason such as ammonia in the water, and definitely not for corals which may react adversely to sudden changes in nitrates, phosphates, and trace elements. I would think that logically, fish living in some degree of ammonia would be much more harmful than the "minor parameter" changes you speak of. For example nitrates would not be an issue, alk should be pretty much the same when water is only 1-2 days old, compared to the new water I am changing with. and the other trace elements would not matter either. Ammonia, left at the 25% level, would however be an issue. So for now I am going to get as much ammonia out of that water as possible while matching temp, ph, and salinity, and O2. (water does need to be aged with correct amounts of oxygen.) So yes, after doing research, when it comes to fish only, temp, salinity, PH and O2 are the key parameters to match, and other parameters are a non-issue when faced with leaving ammonia in the water or removing it completeley.
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Sarah |
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#83
06/12/2007, 10:18 PM
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Also 3 consecutive treatment should be enought
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2 ocelaris 1-1.5", 1 bandaii cardinal, 1 yellow watchman goby 1 pep. shrimp, 10 nas, 1 astrea , 1 cerrith snails Some softys PH 8.1, Alk 11, NH3/4, NO2, NO3 0, Temp 77-79F, SG 1.025 |
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#84
06/22/2007, 04:44 AM
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I am posting my mid-treatment update...
Great news, I have not lost any more fish since the two that first were too sick for the baths. No other fish have been lost in QT, in fact they are all eating vigorously except for the chromis. The chromis don't seem to be eating but no signs of distress...not sure why they won't eat. But they arent dying either so I would think they would be dead by now if they hadn't eaten for 2 weeks...I wonder if they eat something when I am not looking. The fish show no signs of any illness, and look great. My clowns survived, and I gave away 2 fish...the largest, a sailfin tang, and the coral beauty since I didn't really want to keep the possibly coral nipper anyway. Here are the positives that have come out of this once awful, depressing experience: A main tank that is recovering from nitrates, getting lots of waterchanges, and officially being rid of any parasites...including ich! (well, hopefully, I know the lifecycle can be longer than 4 wks.) A beautiful spiraling monti cap mini colony, and a bright GSP rock for trade of my sailfin tang! No more evil shrimp eating flame cardinal! Damn that felt good to get him out! Yay I can have shrimp again! No more possible coral nippers (the coral beauty was given away, and the bicolor sadly passed.) So no more dwarfs for me. I never did know who the culprit was! A new knowledge of how to treat diseases...and less fear of tearing down the tank. More knowledge of running an effective QT. I may have gotten rid of ich for good as well, since I am both doing the transfer method and letting the main tank go fallow. We'll see... Happy Healthy fish! So proud I got to keep my most favorite fish! Knowing I did something, battled the disease, and WON! (with the ones I caught in time.) My tank is officially on the upswing. I will have new shrimp soon, and the fish will go back in in a few weeks! I have been managing to get by with water changes every other day, and adding amquel/prime. I ordered salt from DR fostersmith, which really is nearly half the price of petco! And 15 bucks shipping for FOUR BUCKETS of salt plus other drygoods! Holy crap thats a good deal on shipping! I am SOOOO looking forward to seeing my fish back in the main display, what a great day that will be. That is my continuing motivation!
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Sarah |
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#85
08/30/2007, 01:31 AM
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Another update to any who followed the thread...
It has been nearly 3 months now and the fish went back in the tank 4 weeks after beginning treatment. I did not looose any more fish after the first initial few losses, so in other words the only fish I lost were the ones that were initially too far gone & weak to handle treatment. I gave away my largest tang, who was a piggy eater, which eased the pollution in the QT. The last 2 weeks i was able to get away with WC every 2-3 days, and used "prime" daily as needed to keep the ammonia in check. The use of prime really saved me some money and suffering from my fish!! Great product if you are in a jam! The fish are fat, healthy, and doing well back in the main display, which is looking quite good. I had a cyano outbreak that I treated with maracayn 2, which worked beautifully but did stress the corals a bit during treatment. 1 month later and my sand is beautiful and white, anenomes are huge and healthy, and I feel so much better about the hobby. Thanks to all that encouraged me during that initial depressing few days. New inhabitants of the tank include: some new cleaner shrimp, a tiger tail cuke (which is pretty cool!) and one firefish that was proplery QT'd!
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Sarah |
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#86
08/30/2007, 06:38 AM
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I dont know you personally Sarah but i am proud of you
 .... Being depressed and getting back on your feet takes a lot of self disciplin.... I know how it is to loose a pet (be it cat, dog or fish) and im happy for your victory... DISCLAIMER: Any spelling errors are excused by the fact that im Danish and only use English on the web :P
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DISCLAIMER: Any spelling errors are excused by the fact that im Danish and only use English on the web :P Slowly gathering info on SW tanks |
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#87
08/30/2007, 07:46 AM
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can you list your current params and what test kits you use?
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#88
08/30/2007, 08:02 AM
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WOW
 almost $700 to cure the fish? a $2 bottle of euthanase could of been an option. i don't mean to sound indifferent, but thats a whole lot o $$$$$
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#90
08/30/2007, 09:15 AM
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I haven't read the entire thread but I read the first couple of pages when you first posted. A very sincere congrats to you! A lot of people in your same shoes wouldn't have tried so hard for their fish. Good job!
Best of luck with your reefing future! |
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#92
08/30/2007, 01:47 PM
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Hey Sarah!
I am in the midst of getting my first tank and reading of your trials and tribulations is both scary and inspiring! Grrl power!! Kat
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Be good and you will be lonesome... |
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#93
08/30/2007, 01:51 PM
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That's an awesome update, and I'm very glad to hear of the positive outcome. I'm sure you learned A LOT in the process and there's certainly nothing wrong with that
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Winter ski bum, summer reef bum. |
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#94
08/31/2007, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Congrats Sarah. Nice work. |
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#95
09/20/2007, 01:06 AM
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Actually, it did NOT cost $700 to cure the fish! I was able to save money on salt by using Prime to keep the ammonia down, so I only had to do 90% water changes every 3 days for last 2 weeks. I estimate I spent:
$80 on salt, $$25 on medications, And that's it really. All fish are still happy and healthy in the main display. For all of you adding any type of clownfish, it is especially important that you QT or dip for brooklynella. That's what caused the outbreak for me...I added a wild caught maroon clown, and I am nearly positive he must have carried the disease to the tank. But the great part is, he ended up being a wonderful mate for my big girl maroon clown. She is 3-4 times his size, and they just started to spawn! My RBTA anemones are huge, and I guess they will split any day. My corals are growing very well. I change 50% water monthly. Do the math and you will see that this removes more nitrates than smaller water changes. I read that the larger water changes are absolutely fine if all the parameters match, (temp, salinity, ph, alk.). In fact my tank always seems pretty happy after a water change. Also, if you don't already, BUY YOUR SALT ON drfostersmith.com!! You can often get it on sale for $35 per bucket like I did and its only $15 shipping no matter how many you buy. All the work was sooo worth it to save the tank/fish. People now come over, like in the past, and are just amazed by the tank. (of course the average person thinks its amazing, but probably pales in comparison to many reefer's tanks here!) I am keeping my fish population steady and slowly adding corals. Thanks for all the encouragement and compliments, I just hope this thread has helped many of you in the same boat.
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Sarah |
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