refugiums stop algae. Here's how.

[jjakes24]

I'm not sure about the whole fuge thing. I am being overrun with hair algae and my chaeto just sits in my sump and neither grows or dies. The hair algae is winning regardless of what I do. I have tried every method to rid of it, and none seems to work so far.

[seapug]

I grow Cheato and Razor Caulerpa (C. serrulata) in my DIY refugium on my 28 gal. HQI. They both have a similar growth habit (tangled mass) so I figured "mixing it up" a little might be interesting.

The razor caulerpa is something that my 90 has always had as a live rock hitch hiker and I've never had it sporulate on me, likely because I keep it pruned back. It's a little easier to manage than some other Caulerpa, like racemosa that breaks into millions of pieces and spreads all over. So fat it seems to be working well. I do keep it under 24/7 lighting in the fuge. I've heard it can keep it from going sexual, but another advantage of 24/7 lighting on a fuge is it can help counter the pH and oxygen drop that often occurs at night when the photosynthesizers in the display are taking in oxygen rather than generating it.

[jjakes24]

and if you want to see what I am talking about, here is a link in the macro forum with my fuge, which I have had for two years now, having little effect:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11265508#post11265508

[Sk8r]

I'd suggest several things if your fuge is not having effect.
1. cheato endures really heavy flow better than other algae. It even seems to thrive on it.
2. cheato can be lit 24/7. If you are less than that, try it.
3. your main tank can tolerate periods of 3 day dark, one day actinic. Try that, while your cheato stays in daylight.
4. source of additional phosphate: 1. dry fish food, 2. tap water and well water, 3 die off of algae. Fix those. Feed frozen only, stop the phytoplankton temporarily, use ro/di, and keep rotating your cheato so there's no dieoff, and up the flow. 1000gph is tolerable and you will still have copepods. Remember too, your fish need only ONE mouthful of fishfood a day to stay well-fed. Look at your fishes and add up those mouths, then look at the volume you are feeding.
HTH.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by Sk8r
I'd suggest several things if your fuge is not having effect.
1. cheato endures really heavy flow better than other algae. It even seems to thrive on it.
2. cheato can be lit 24/7. If you are less than that, try it.
3. your main tank can tolerate periods of 3 day dark, one day actinic. Try that, while your cheato stays in daylight.
4. source of additional phosphate: 1. dry fish food, 2. tap water and well water, 3 die off of algae. Fix those. Feed frozen only, stop the phytoplankton temporarily, use ro/di, and keep rotating your cheato so there's no dieoff, and up the flow. 1000gph is tolerable and you will still have copepods. Remember too, your fish need only ONE mouthful of fishfood a day to stay well-fed. Look at your fishes and add up those mouths, then look at the volume you are feeding.
HTH.

....and rinse the frozen food first with r/o or tank water

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by jjakes24
and if you want to see what I am talking about, here is a link in the macro forum with my fuge, which I have had for two years now, having little effect:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11265508#post11265508

I just did a read on the other thread---one thing I could add here as a possiblity. With running phosban and carbon--it is more effective if they are run in separate reactors. In a reactor the water has no choice but to be forced through the entire medium--unlike the bag in a sump method--the water can skirt around the edges of the bag and the whole medium is being utilized.
phosban reactors are really cheap and they would fit in your system:

[killagoby]

I run my lights 24/7 in my refugium and there's been no "sexual healing" here. lol

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by killagoby
I run my lights 24/7 in my refugium and there's been no "sexual healing" here. lol

its probably chaeto in there

[underpar]

Hi Sk8r,

Thanks for the helpful information, not only in this thread, but in the many others you offer. I have often benefited from the knowledge and experiences you have shared.

I have a sump/fuge set-up with a large ball of chaeto. I use the reverse lighting schedule, with the fuge lit for about 14 hours per day. A sand bed about 2-3" deep; some live rock; several snails and a bunch of bristleworms. I have absolutely not problem with algae in either the sump/fuge or main tank.

My questions about this topic....

1) I have been told that the flow of water through the fuge should be rather slow. Should I step it up somewhat?

2) I have struckout regarding pods. Earlier in my system's history, I had a very nice population of pods. Without any predators, they seemed to disappear. I have since "seeded" with new pods three times and have had no success in re-establishing a good supply. Any thoughts?

Thanks, Fred

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by underpar
Hi Sk8r,

Thanks for the helpful information, not only in this thread, but in the many others you offer. I have often benefited from the knowledge and experiences you have shared.

I have a sump/fuge set-up with a large ball of chaeto. I use the reverse lighting schedule, with the fuge lit for about 14 hours per day. A sand bed about 2-3" deep; some live rock; several snails and a bunch of bristleworms. I have absolutely not problem with algae in either the sump/fuge or main tank.

My questions about this topic....

1) I have been told that the flow of water through the fuge should be rather slow. Should I step it up somewhat?

2) I have struckout regarding pods. Earlier in my system's history, I had a very nice population of pods. Without any predators, they seemed to disappear. I have since "seeded" with new pods three times and have had no success in re-establishing a good supply. Any thoughts?

Thanks, Fred

If you want the refug to produce a greater variety and quantity of inverts and useful bacteria then the flow rate should be 1/10 to 1/8 of the main flow rate to your sump.

If you want the added fliltration fo the chaeto in the fug then there should be a greater flow through it

Flow rate through a sump should match the capacity of your protein skimmmer--otherwise unfiltered water is returned to the main tank

RE copopods:
Have you checked at night with a flashlight---my tank is teaming with them.
The return from your refugium should enter your sump at a point where the water is returning to the main tank.
If you are over skimming --they can be removed
If you are using a filter sock they can be removed.
Are you feeding the inverts in the fuge--I use DT phyto in there once a week.

Here's my set up to illustrate:
I am using the fug for producing more copopods so the flow is reduced to 1/10. I have removed the filter sock or bag.


notice the return line from the refug enter the sump at the bottom bulk head returning to the main tank.



I removed the filter sock to the right--that made a difference

[Sk8r]

Yep, Hylinur is absolutely right on filter socks, filter media of all kinds---get 'em out. FOr one thing, they tend to get dirty in a moment of inattention and build up nitrate which will kill corals; secondly, they strain out copepods, who are pretty good little algae consumers on their own: they're good for your tank on a lot of levels. The more microlife the merrier, and your cheato ball can both house that, AND serve as a pretty good live filter-ball. If you want to slow down your water flow, fling up a breakwater of live rock rubble before your cheato ball and that will break a linear flow into a chaotic, slower flow, which the pods do tolerate.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by Sk8r
Yep, Hylinur is absolutely right on filter socks, filter media of all kinds---get 'em out. FOr one thing, they tend to get dirty in a moment of inattention and build up nitrate which will kill corals; secondly, they strain out copepods, who are pretty good little algae consumers on their own: they're good for your tank on a lot of levels. The more microlife the merrier, and your cheato ball can both house that, AND serve as a pretty good live filter-ball. If you want to slow down your water flow, fling up a breakwater of live rock rubble before your cheato ball and that will break a linear flow into a chaotic, slower flow, which the pods do tolerate.

thanks for the vote of confidence--from an expert like yourself.
Alot of my posts are designed to be helpful to others but they also become self validation that I am also doing things correctly.

IMO--i find using live rock as a breakwater is an expensive baffle.
In my particular case the walls of the trickle filter slow the water down and diffuse any bubbles.
I had the live rock in the trickle filter at first but moved it to the other side of the sump where the water was moving much slower. This allow extra time or exposure to the bacteria in and around the live rock.
In this case the live rock also provides a shelter for the inverts from the fug and further keeps them away from the first section where the skimmer pump is.
(That picture is a couple of months old--I have been adding a piece of live rock every two weeks or so to that sump area)

[underpar]

Thanks for the responses.

1) I do not use filters of any kind.
2) The water from the fuge goes directly to the chamber where it is sent back to the main tank.
3) I have looked with a flashlight and found nothing.
4) I add DT's to the main tank at least once per week. Would adding it to the fuge have a different result? If so, why?
5) How can I determine if I am over skimming?
6) I cannot say specifically what the flow rate through the fuge is. But I have reduced it to what I would call a "fast trickle".
7) What would make the original population disappear? Will they come back without further seeding?

Thanks, Fred

[kathainbowen]

Originally posted by Sk8r
And wait! There's more!

I can only surmise that you were a QVC salesperson in a previous life..... possibly selling those Ginsu knives that cut through cans, pennies, and, oh my god, a tomato (yeah.... I know.... they were cutting the tomato to prove how sharp of an edge the knife kept, but it was always anti-climatic to me).

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by underpar
Thanks for the responses.

1) I do not use filters of any kind.
2) The water from the fuge goes directly to the chamber where it is sent back to the main tank.
3) I have looked with a flashlight and found nothing.
4) I add DT's to the main tank at least once per week. Would adding it to the fuge have a different result? If so, why?
5) How can I determine if I am over skimming?
6) I cannot say specifically what the flow rate through the fuge is. But I have reduced it to what I would call a "fast trickle".
7) What would make the original population disappear? Will they come back without further seeding?

Thanks, Fred

IMO--I look at overskimming in relation to skimming out use inverts etc--that would occcur when your rate of skimming far exceeded your sump flow rate.

So I don't rile my reefing friends--in terms of skimming your tank period----there really is no such thing as over skimming.

Unless you have alot of sps coral--most lps and softies eat zooplankton. The phytoplankton is eaten by the zooplankton so its best to put it in the refugium where you are trying to raise them. or not feed them all---everytime you scape the glass of that nuisance algae you are adding phyto to the water column

I am still not convinced that you have zero zooplankton in your tank---some house themselves in the substrate others are microscopic in size.

My "edumacated" guess is they are being skimmed off over time.

The best way to reduce this is to keep them safe in a refugium with low flow and little access to protein skimming.

[killagoby]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
its probably chaeto in there

It's not. It's Caulerpa. I've had it go sexual in one of my older fuges.

[Sk8r]

Put your skimmer intake into the main pump chamber rather than the fuge, so that the pods have a 50/50 chance of going up into the display rather than dead-ending in the skimmer. Put your skimmer outflow into the first or the fuge chamber, in case some escape.

[ReefSparky]

This is great stuff. Thanks so much to the leaders here who give so freely of their time and knowledge so cleaner shrimp like myself have a fighting chance.

I'm in the process of making a 'fuge right now. These copepods I hear about. .I suppose they can make it through the impeller of a pump or powerhead and back into the main tank in one piece? (Or do the fish prefer them pre-chewed a la impeller?) ((has anyone seen that very old Saturday Night Live where Dan Akroyd, Chevy Chase, Gilda Ratner, Jane Curtain, John Belushi, et al. are enjoying food that was pre-chewed for them? Classic disgusting skit!))

And a final question: do these copepods "come with" the chaeto when you obtain it, or must they be seeded from some source outside the aquarium?



Back to the forum!

[Sk8r]

Even amphipods [big] have made it up through the impeller of an iwaki 100, which has about the rotational speed of a Cuisinart. I am endlessly amazed by their survivability.
In a healthy tank, the cheato is almost always populated with hundreds of pods. if you for some reason lose your pods, buying some new cheato will almost always give your population a boost.
I have also bought some from Reefnutrition: they have a nice fat strain of them. My cheato at the moment is lousy with them, and my mandy [who also eats dry or frozen] is so happy I'm even thinking about another very small dragonet---would you believe she learned this trick only AFTER I built the fuge? That's a mandy for you. But now I have quite a lot of pods.

[ReefSparky]

thank you, Sk8r!

[Sk8r]

Cap'n, you asked about head pressure: on the Iwaki 100, it's way too much for a 54g tank even up 20 feet of hose. I have it cut back to half, up a 1" hose to a T, then to two more T's to calm it down. It's not been too bad on electric, but I'd advise the 55 for anything less than a 500g tank with multiple T's.

And somebody asked about caulerpa: as long as caulerpa is under a fixed light cycle it will behave; but if the light changes it appears to go into reproductive mode, which pollutes tanks. Never experienced this myself, but this is what I hear. I have some tangled in the cheato in my sump, but so far the cheato is winning.

And newsalt: it took 4 weeks of full fuge function [howzzat for alliteration?] for me to watch the last of my display tank caulerpa turn pale and die. I would estimate maybe a month you should see something.

Bertoni also reminded me of something I knew and hadn't recalled recently: phosphate can easily ride in with your initial load of live rock. So it will get in there. The question is how to get enough out.

I don't wash my food as I ought---but the fuge still keeps ahead of it.

But I did try some Coral Frenzy. INSTANT diatom problem, just fyi. If you see something appear, remember what you just added. Not that Coral Frenzy isn't a good food for corals, but the bloom was within 48 hours, so I'm real suspicious that was it. I also haven't fed it in a while, and the bloom has stopped.

[underpar]

Sk8r and capn_hyliner:

Thanks for your continued interest in my questions. Additional information to consider. I do not know how to include a graphic display of my sump/fuge, so I will try to explain it textually.

Path of the water from the display tank back, through the sump/fuge and back to the display is as follows:

Return from tank (Line #1)>>>>skimmimg chamber>>>>"Nothing" chamber>>>>return chamber that supplies the pump

Return from tank (Line #2)>>>>Fuge>>>>"Nothing" chamber>>>>return chamber that supplies the pump

The "Nothing" chamber is a section I incorporated in the system for future use in housing frags. At this time, there is nothing in it at all.

If you understand this correctly, you will see that the water from the fuge is very removed from the skimmer.

Regarding supply of new pods...Two months ago, I added a double batch of copepods and a single batch of amphipods obtained fron ReefNutrition. Last month I added a jar of Tigger Pods from my LFS. Unless I am totally blind to what I am looking for, I see no evidence of these additions still in the system.

What do you think?

Thanks, Fred

[jasondon]

Thank-you very much for the informative post Sk8r!

My new sump has room for a small fuge, I mean small like 3/4 gallons. Assuming this is still beneficial, is it worth taking up the room with sand, or should I just put cheato in? My goal is as good of a population of pods so I can eventually keep a mandarin.

As well, can pods survive UV, or should I ditch it? Maybe a little tan will help?

[cgarr017]

sorry but what is DT's in terms of food i am assuming?

[tetra-tag]

DT's refers to bottled phyto-plankton from 'DT's plankton farm,' a business based in Illinois if I recall. Phyto-plankton is dosed to feed the micro-invertbrates (copepods, amphipods, isopods) on which other desirable invertebrates (and coral) feed.