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  #1  
Old 01/13/2005, 01:16 PM
Hyshnari Hyshnari is offline
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Pairing: How long until maturity? (Kaudern's/Banggai Cardinals)

I'm considering getting a pair of cardinalfish, and after reading many of the threads on this forum, realize that the odds of me picking out a male & female on my first try are not good at all.

That leaves the option of buying multiple cardinals and waiting to see who will pair up. However, I was wondering how long it would take (approximately) for them to start exhibiting aggressive behavior once I purchased them from the stores.

Most of the cardinals that I've seen in the stores have been about 1 1/2-inch from nosetip to the start of the tail.

I only ask, since I'm at college right now, and although my main tanks have 'fuges to rescue the beat-up cardinals, my dorm tanks don't. And I'd prefer not to have dead cardinals on my hands.

Also, once you have an aggressive cardinal (which you can most likely assume is the male), how do you know WHICH is the female? Or do you simply have to keep removing the beat-up cardinals until all the other males are gone (and therefore deduce that the remaining cardinals are female?)?

If anyone has any better ideas to get a pair of bangaii's, please let me know! I'm going to ask my LFS if he knows of a way to specifically order a M/F pair for me and the cost differences of doing so. I'm also going to ask him if he'd take returns of the rejected fish (which I'm almost certain he will), in which case seperating & returning the beat-up cardinals won't be a problem.
  #2  
Old 01/13/2005, 02:07 PM
FMarini FMarini is offline
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banggai reach sexual maturity around 4-6 months, you'll start to see aggression out of males around 6 months
http://www.breedersregistry.org/Arti...ini/marini.htm
http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog...ni_020799.html
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  #3  
Old 01/13/2005, 02:35 PM
Hyshnari Hyshnari is offline
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6 months, ok... I don't really know how old the ones at my LFS are... what size would they be at 6 months?

Quote:
When the animals reached the one year point the animals would be about 1.0-1.5 inches SVL
SVL??
  #4  
Old 01/13/2005, 09:44 PM
FMarini FMarini is offline
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snount (nose)- vent(butt) -length =SVL.
A sexually mature banggai should be around 1.5-2" from nose to butthole. Don't count the tail
frank
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  #5  
Old 01/14/2005, 03:28 AM
Hyshnari Hyshnari is offline
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Gotcha. Thanks -- exactly the info I was looking for. So if the ones at my LFS are 1.5" from nose to beginning of tail (vent/butt), they may have a bit of growing to do yet.

I guess I'll have to wait until I get back home to my tanks with 'fuges before attempting to get a group -- I don't want to kill any unnecessarily.

Thanks again!
  #6  
Old 01/14/2005, 09:49 PM
Hyshnari Hyshnari is offline
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Well, I went ahead and bit the bullet. And totally didn't plan for it either.

Went into my LFS to pick up some PE mysis and they had JUST received a shipment in -- including two different types of cardinals. There were about 6 banggai cardinals and a group of 5 cardinals which my LFS didn't even order, and were only listed as "cardinals". They look the same as the pajama cardinal, without the yellow coloring on the rear end.

Anyway, back to the story. Turns out these were CB banggai's from a breeder in brazil, and after seeing a BEAUTIFUL one with a long banner fin (really, he was the only one who had his fin in tact), I just had to have him. I say him only because I've heard that males have longer banners. Since I have a very good friendship with my LFS, they assured me that, at any time, I could bring back the other banggai if they both turned out to be male, and try a different one out to see if it was female.

Anyway, I was sold. One of the women who knew a bit about banggai's helped me pick out one of the more-likely females by their roundish body shape, although since the "female" is only about 1.5" SVL, we may be mistaken. Her banner fin is slightly nipped as well, but all the others (besides my "male") had nipped fins so it was all a gamble.

So we'll see how it goes. As soon as they're settled in I'll try and post a picture up. They school together, and show no signs of aggression at all. But they're young yet. We'll see if luck will be in my favor.
  #7  
Old 01/14/2005, 10:36 PM
David M David M is offline
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I am certainly in no position to argue with Frank but my experience is otherwise, the main reason I stopped breeding bangaii's (besides the low numbers) is that they take way too long to grow out. About a year to reach a reasonable marketable size. ( and I feed with a heavy hand, no costs spared for quality foods) Just for kicks I kept about 20 juvies in a 60 gallon tank to see if I could get a community thing going. At around 14 months a dominant male emerged and started dividing up the group, killing a couple of fish in the process. Also I was able to remove a few before death and save them, the total was reduced to about 12. The male occupied the center of the tank, a rival male was kept at bay in the upper left corner and the remainder of females/ juvie males were held in a tight group at the right side of the tank. It was like watching a sheepdog at work, if the group at the right started to break up he would "herd" them back into formation. If the outcast male ventured towards the center of the tank he would drive him back to the corner. Eventually he "chose" a mate from the group which then occupied the center with him. Shortly after that he killed the rival male. At that point I pulled the pair so I don't know what may have happened next. A new dominat male emerged in the group. These were offspring of a pair I formed by placing two fish at random in a 37 gallon tank. One beat the snot out of the other so I removed the loser and tried again, same results. Third time was a charm, I released the new fish and the male charged full speed, only to put on the brakes at the last second like a cartoon charecter. Instead of attacking the new fish he began "strutting", and displaying. (did a little dance, made a little love, got down that night)
  #8  
Old 01/14/2005, 11:28 PM
Hyshnari Hyshnari is offline
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I'm not into breeding for money -- just amusement. I have a nice LFS who would certainly take the babies if I had no space.

Anyway, here are the pics, as best I can shoot them. I'm not a photographer. Apologies for algae and cheesy plastic plants in advance. QT tank.


The two of them... potential female in front, potential male in back



Just the "male"... Note the un-nipped fin. "He" ate one big PE mysis after he settled down. Took him a while to chew.


The "female"... If it really is a female. All the others besides the "male" had nipped fins like this one, so we just guessed the best we could.
  #9  
Old 01/14/2005, 11:55 PM
rsman rsman is offline
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so what about pics of the unknown ???
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  #10  
Old 01/15/2005, 02:02 AM
David M David M is offline
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IMHO that is a pair. The second pic is a perfect shot of the female, showing the very rounded form. If you view the male from the same angle, or directly from the front, it should appear much more "squared off".
  #11  
Old 01/15/2005, 02:21 AM
Hyshnari Hyshnari is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by rsman
so what about pics of the unknown ???
They ARE the unknowns. I only got two since my LFS said that I could trade for a new one if both ended up being male.

David M- nice to know that the "female" is likely to BE a female! Here's some extra shots of the male from the side and the front, as I'm terrible at determining these things. Clownfish are so much easier.

Side Shot (he's the one in focus -- the one in the back)


Front shot (he's the one in the lower left)
  #12  
Old 01/15/2005, 02:44 AM
Hyshnari Hyshnari is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by rsman
so what about pics of the unknown ???
Oh, oops. I figured you meant my fish when I read your post, but I'm thinking perhaps you meant the unknown species of cardinal.

No pics for those guys, but they look EXACTLY like pajamas (pyjamas?) in marking (spots & everything), just without the yellow tail end. They're entirely black (dark gray?) and white. I still liked the banggai's better, and I'm not too keen on purchasing species I don't know about, so I got the kauderni. The next time I head to the LFS, I'll try and bring my camera with me to take shots of the just "cardinal" labeled ones.
  #13  
Old 01/15/2005, 03:54 AM
Hyshnari Hyshnari is offline
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*edit*

It appears to be the Sphaeramia orbicularis, or Orbiculate Cardinal...

Thanks to the lovely pic on http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cardinal.htm
  #14  
Old 01/15/2005, 11:24 AM
David M David M is offline
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I still say it's a pair but nothing is carved in stone FWIW and in my experience only, I could not get these fish to breed in anything less than a 40 gallon tank and only then if there were no other fish present. OTOH I have a friend with a fairly packed 180 reef and his bangaii's bred several times in there, we occasionally found juvies alive and well in the sump/ refugium.
  #15  
Old 01/15/2005, 12:07 PM
Atticus Atticus is offline
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I posted a poll about a year ago and found the same results about tank size. I believe it is a water quality issue more than anything. As far as tankmates go you will be fine adding mates as long as they are not bothering the pair and that they are not really active eaters as you will need to be able to feed the male tons of food or to saturation ( search saturation feeding in the clownfish forum). If they always hang out as closely as they are in that picture I will agree you have a pair. If they start to stay at opposite ends of the tank pull one and try again.
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  #16  
Old 01/15/2005, 12:37 PM
David M David M is offline
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Atticus, fwiw I had many tanks on central filtration so in theory the water was all the same. I paired them up and grew them out in 10's and then moved a few pairs to 20 gallon tanks. After a while I moved some to 40's. The pairs in the 40's bred many times but the pairs in the 20's never did. It would have good to switch them and see if they would reverse roles, but I didn't want to screw with the breding pairs
  #17  
Old 01/15/2005, 01:15 PM
Hyshnari Hyshnari is offline
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They're usually no more than 5" away from each other at any given time. The only time they split further is when chasing a more tasty brine shrimp to a different part of the tank. But even then, they keep within view of the other.

Well, I'm in no big hurry to start breeding or anything. Breeding would be fun, but my biggest concern is two males bickering. If they don't end up breeding (and I'm bored and would like to try out banggai fry), I'll try moving them to a larger tank and see what happens.

Thanks for the input from first-hand experience -- I find this is usually the best input.
  #18  
Old 01/15/2005, 01:44 PM
rsman rsman is offline
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hey orbics my cheasy avitar is an orbic, I like orbic's

there cute when they are little, they kinda look ugly when there older, and i like it
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  #19  
Old 01/15/2005, 07:51 PM
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If they are a pair they should spawn withing the next two months. I've had them breed as young as 5 months. The male did not hold till term though.
Just my .02
  #20  
Old 01/16/2005, 01:06 AM
Atticus Atticus is offline
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Pretty bold statement... A pair does require some parameters to be right, they must be mature and at least like eachother... If you pair starts to breed as in the male holds eggs, but will not hold to term then you will want to get them into a larger tank.
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  #21  
Old 01/16/2005, 08:41 AM
Sally Sally is offline
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Atticus: That is my experience. I said if they are a pair they "should" breed within 6 weeks....I did not say the male would hold till term. I still hold to my statement. Those banggai's look mature enough IMO

Last edited by Sally; 01/16/2005 at 08:56 AM.
  #22  
Old 01/16/2005, 11:01 AM
David M David M is offline
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It seems the more reports I read of experience with bangaii's the less consistent they are. Maybe we are nuts trying to "type" them or make general statements, many of the posts here are contradictory and this is a pretty reliable group, looks like anything is possible with these little guys.
  #23  
Old 01/16/2005, 01:54 PM
Atticus Atticus is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by David M
It seems the more reports I read of experience with bangaii's the less consistent they are. Maybe we are nuts trying to "type" them or make general statements, many of the posts here are contradictory and this is a pretty reliable group, looks like anything is possible with these little guys.
Exactly, that is why I would never say a fish will breed within X amount of days because there are far too many variables. I will agree that bangaii are easy to get spawning, but to say that they will breed in 6 weeks because you had one pair that bred fresh out of the fish store is not realistic. Now if you said that after they reach 1.5 inches SVL that you may see them start the mating and breeding process I would agree as it is a size relationship to maturity, but that being said there still are too many variables from one persons tank to another let alone the difference and labido of individual fish. If they breed quickly congrats if not just enjoy them as they are cool fish and let nature take its course. I personally have dealt with my fair share of bangaii pairs and clownfish pairs to know that there is not a standard for anything in this hobby. Clownfish as an example are supposed to stop spawning when moved to a new location. There is a post on here with pictures that tells of a clown laying a nest while being drip acclimated.... Far to variable.
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