miracle cure for Ich

[jim koregelos]

Amazing!!! I read somewhere in Reef Central that using Ginger very finely ground and added to the fish food would eliminate Ich in one day. I do not want to take credit for this but am unable to find the thread to give credit where it is due. Whoever it was, thank you. It works wonderfully well. This is definitely a miracle cure for a sticky problem in our hobby. I had a complete cure in 48 hours for three pieces of Ich on a Flame Angel. No sign of anything after the 48 hours. I fed Ginger for two consecutive days.

[Dwayne]

I just remove the 'stressor' that was causing the 'ich' and get the same results.

[ilango]

You better move all your fish to a hospital tank NOW and wait for a week or so and see

[Steven Pro]

Are you familiar with the lifecycle of this parasite? Did you know that it leaves the fish host after 3-7 days to reproduce?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-1...ture/index.htm

[Thales]

Here is the thread:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1

It is quite likely that ginger did nothing to rid your fish of the the parasite.

[jim koregelos]

Thank you all for your informative and sensitive replies. Obviously. I made a mistake but your recomended sites will help rectify this matter. I am a beginner at 80 yrs. of age so I will not learn so quickly but hopefully quick enough.

[ilango]

Move all your fish to a seperate tank ASAP you can bring them back to the display tank later- provided the parasites are dead by them.

[jgln]

Not trying to be wise, but that's probably why you should have posted this in the beginners forum. I come here to look around but post all my questions there out of respect to the real advanced hobbyist.
It's not just you but I amazed at how so many people post here with obviously beginner questions. I guess they want expert advice right off.

[vermonter310]

Back to the original statement. I can't help but wonder why most of what I read on this subject(ginger) is so negative? While I understand that it hasn't been proven or even in reality tested in anything close to a real trial, many many things I read about on RC havn't been either. Yet all kninds of people climb on board because it sounds reasonable. (DSB's come to mind, and now BB) Why is everyone so sure it doesn't work? In science I understand grand claims require grand proof. Sometimes you need to be willing to be the one to help aquire that proof. Maybe it works, Maybe it doesn't. I won't write it off quite so quickly. I'll watch with guarded intrest. And I'll hope.

Mike

[Thales]

Originally posted by vermonter310
Back to the original statement. I can't help but wonder why most of what I read on this subject(ginger) is so negative? While I understand that it hasn't been proven or even in reality tested in anything close to a real trial, many many things I read about on RC havn't been either. Yet all kninds of people climb on board because it sounds reasonable. (DSB's come to mind, and now BB) Why is everyone so sure it doesn't work? In science I understand grand claims require grand proof. Sometimes you need to be willing to be the one to help aquire that proof. Maybe it works, Maybe it doesn't. I won't write it off quite so quickly. I'll watch with guarded intrest. And I'll hope.

Mike

It has to do with the life-cycle of the parasite. It becomes visible and then seems to go away as part of its life-cycle, and it often 'clears up' on its own. With that in mind, almost anything thought to effect the parasite looks like it does effect the parasite, and seems to have supporting evidence - however this is the fallacy of post hoc ergo proptor hoc (it happened after therefore was caused by). This has led to about a bigillion ich cures, all of which have no real evidence to support them, only the notion that after the 'cure' the parasite went away, when in reality, it often does anyway. The 'cures', except copper and hypo, have the same effectiveness of curing the parasite as doing nothing.
The frustration that comes is from people ignoring treatments that work, and having a little success with something that is as good as doing nothing. Its the jumping on board itself that is frustrating.
If there was a shred of evidence that ginger actually did something, I would be very open. But as it stands, ginger is as effective against ich as changing light bulbs in the room the tank is in - but for some reason, no one takes that seriously.

[Dwayne]

I am not saying it doesn't work, but I'm also not saying it does it. For me it is something else to add to the tank that just doesn't need to be added. "Ich" is typically caused by a stressor, remove the stressor. If your fish isn't healthy enough to recover, then you need to examine what the fish was being fed before it got 'sick'. If the argument is that the ginger replaces something missing in the fish's diet, change the diet. There is probably more being missed than just what the ginger is replacing.

Natural foods are the best food, IMO.

[Thales]

--

[vermonter310]

Originally posted by Lefty
The 'cures', except copper and hypo, have the same effectiveness of curing the parasite as doing nothing.
The frustration that comes is from people ignoring treatments that work, .

And you know they(copper/hypo) work based on someone else, sometime ago, taking the same step that the "ginger" people are now.

You write it off with no more proof that it doesn't work than the people who are using/trying it have that it does.

that's all I'm saying.

I shall remain with "Guarded Optimism!"


Mike

[Thales]

Originally posted by vermonter310
[B]And you know they(copper/hypo) work based on someone else, sometime ago, taking the same step that the "ginger" people are now.

Two very different situations. IIRC, copper and hypo were developed by the aquaculture industry where ich can be a major problem. They were developed using the scientific method with checks along the way. Nothing near the anecdotal evidence for most of the ich cures on the market including ginger.

You write it off with no more proof that it doesn't work than the people who are using/trying it have that it does.

No, I write it off because it has only flawed anecdotal evidence to support it.
And in the case of marine ich that rejection is even more powerful because of the life cycle of the parasite. Doing nothing results in the same rate of remission as ginger.

I shall remain with "Guarded Optimism!"

And shall remain with 'guarded cynicism'.

[vermonter310]

LOL.....fair enough.


Mike

[ilango]

jim koregelos : how is your fish now?

[j.stagner]

Isn't ginger a natural antibiotic? I wonder if that'd be a factor, either for good or ill in our tanks. Just the same, don't think I'd be trying it.

[harper]

Its really very sad. LFS are loaded with all kinds of witches brew for salt water “Ich�. The industry is so vested in making sure the hobbyist is scared to death of using copper that newbies will try almost anything except the one thing that FOR SURE will kill Ich DEAD. The average hobbyist will buy a tank, filters, equipment, etc then kill off a couple tanks full of fish and be out of the hobby inside a year. They will have tried garlic, ginger, and a few stains (which only work for fresh water) to no avail, when a ten dollar bottle of copper would have saved every single fish they ever bought. The fish store is happy they have the $3000 for the setup, and the $2000 aka 3 tanks worth of dead fish. Had the store taught the hobbyist to treat the disease it would take decades for the hobbyist to spend $2000 in fish, but hell the store got that inside a year. A $10 bottle of copper hardly makes up for that. A less short sited store might think, well if they know what they are doing and have great success, maybe the hobbyist would set up a second tank… But the reality is the hobbyist will have found online sources for supplies by then and cut the LFS out of the action anyway. So the LFS owner was correct, the only money to be made is in preying on the newbie.

Innovative new treatments will come. But garlic, ginger, stains arnt them. Quarantine with copper/hypo isn’t a requirement for success. Some have done well with quarantine and UV. Quarantine really is a responsibility. As is sensible treatment. Especially with diseases so well defined and such effective treatments. LFS have been using this information for the past 50 years to help kill fish (make money) its time every hobbyist uses this information to help ensure their pets survival.

[keefsama2003]

for most people with larger tanks copper is not an option in a reef. there are copper sensitive inverts and fish that cannot handle it. i have a 300g tank i dont think it would be practical to rip the whole tank apart if for some reason after QT ich broke out in the tank. so there has to be an alternative way. i dont know many ppl with tanks over 180g that would risk tearing out all the rock to catch fish and they all have sensitive inverts so dosing copper is not an option. yes it works great but only if the environment supports it.

[harper]

Yes and that’s why quarantine is so important. Hypo is the other viable option. But again some inverts don’t handle it well. I’m sure they are out there, but I have never owned a fish that didn’t tolerate a therapeutic copper treatment. I have had Ich outbreaks caused by transferring liverock from a tank infected with ich. Which always sucks. Its tough with all the misleading information..and 6 to 8 weeks needed for effective quarantine…

At this time in the hobby there really shouldn’t be any Ich except at wholesalers. But LFS, either through fear of effective treatment or intentionally, sponsor its propagation. The store I worked at in highschool would not sell copper. I have recently run into the same thing when visiting a friend. He was having all kinds of disease problems…ICH, then secondary infections which his LFS was selling him antibiotics to treat. We went over to the LFS, asked for copper, was told “we don’t carry that sht, It will tear your fish up�. Oddly they did sell copper test kits. Most mom & pops pharmacies will sell you copper sulfate.

[NeilPearson]

Originally posted by Dwayne
"Ich" is typically caused by a stressor, remove the stressor.

"Ich" is caused by a parasite. A stressor may make the fish more vulnerable to the parasite but if the parasite is not there already, no amount of stress will make your fish break out in Ich

[Thales]

Here is a long thread about ginger. The last three pages are a good summation.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...23#post3998723

Also, I have recently been catching fish out of my 150 for various reasons lately, and have found it to be not too difficult. A little time and a little research into how to catch the specific fish you are trying to catch yeilds great results. I think the difficulty that most in the hobby think about regarding catching fish comes from wanting to get the fish out right away with a net - there are other, effective ways to get fish out of a fully stocked reef tank.

[wasp9166]

i soak my food in garlic juice and marine c, havent seen ich since i started the marine c, it worked for me

[wayne in norway]

Then stick with it. All I know is that garlic didn't do anything for me, but copper and hypo both worked. Ginger may or may not work, but I've yet to see a trial.
I'd love to see a miracle cure, but I'm not holding my breath. If you assume a new drug is going to cost a few millions to develop, then you have to sell a hell of a lot to reefers to get any reasonable return, and the finances don't work for seachem or kent or whoever to do this work. You won't be selling too much to aquaculture companies as thery like to use copper and hypo.
Actually a big difference between copper/hypo and garlic/ginger is that copper and hypo have explainable methods of working whereas the latter doesn't, just a rep for 'powerful medicinal properties'. Garlic contains some alycoin I believe (some one please correct me), but I don't think there's any mech for it getting through the stomach wall? Maybe the fact it gives the fish a cleaned gut and better ability to eat explains it's abilities in some situations??

[sevise]

Garlic is still a good suppliment though correct? It may not cure ich but it does make fish healthier and more resistant to disease?