miracle cure for Ich

[Thales]

I would also be interested in some data on the 'sponge' cancer cure. I cant find anything on the net about it, no one seems to be using it, so I am skeptical.

[CyanoMagnet]

Hmm I dont do any of that soaking stuff.
I quarantine all my fish for a long time and if they got no ich then off they go into the never nver ich free land.

[Manon]

What i hurd about garlic is that it increase the fish appetite!! So if the fish eat well, good food, their immune system is better off to fight the parasite!!

I have an ER tank but I'm would be very resistent to remove all the fish in there because the stress to move to such a small environment compare to what they are use to seem to be worse!!

I have used copper in the past and it was not successful but perhaps I removed the fish too late??

Mia

[wayne in norway]

You must have dosed too low, or in an enviroment with gravel or rock that soaked some of it out. The correct amount of copper simply cannot/will not fail. The levels provided are enogh ot kill almost all inverts except bacteria, but not high enough to kill the fish. With Cu you need a Cu test it.

[porkbullet]

Does a UV sterilizer kill ich in the water?

[wayne in norway]

If it's of sufficient power and set up correctly. But it will only kill what's in it at point x in time. It doesn't do anything to the ich that's on the fish, in th rest of the water or encysted on the substrate.
I can well believe they're plumbed inline on multitank systems. I find it tough to believe it would do much for a tank, but lots of people swear by them

[jnfallon]

Had a tang in qt for two weeks with hypo at 1.009 and was getting more and more spots. Dropped the sg a bit more to 1.008 (on a hyrometer) and fed some finely minced fresh garlic (which it didnt love but ate a few pieces.) Some garlic went uneaten and fell into the substrate. I left it there.

2 days later he was spot free. 1 week since then and still ok. Let you know in 4 weeks if it comes back.

I include all the specifics because I don't know if it was the eaten garlic, the garlic in the water, the further drop in sg or the coincidental timing that made the cysts drop off.

[chevell]

We should be talking about what really causes ick and trying to prevent that. Stress causes the slime coat in fish to become weak enabling ich to take hold. I have seen out breaks with no other fish added just because of one mean fish becoming aggresive and tormenting other fish. This is for sure and without a doubt the number one cause and can't be prevented by putting fish in quarentine. The other cause are water changes with either too cold of water or just adding water too fast will for sure stress the slime coat on fish giving the parasite a chance to take hold. I use water from scripps and it does for sure have ick in it, there fore everytime you change water you have a good chance of introducing the parasite. Of course not changing water can have worse effects and to cure a fish i'll actually wait a few weeks between water changes in order for the fish to recovery completely,otherwise the slime coat won't have a chance recover from all the scratching which also rubs slime coat off. These are just my observastions and aren't scientific fact as none of the cures are fact at this point. Doing 50 percent water changes weekly as suggested by some only serves to further damage the slime coat while maybe removing some of the original ich it also causes the fish to have to acclimate to new water conditions over and over again which any one in the bait bussiness can tell you kills fish. Overall I have indeed linked the cause of ick to be from improper water changes which causes the slime coat to be comprimised and this is not addressed well enough in any of the articles that I have read on this thread.

[sparkey65]

ok i have have been sitting here reading all these responses to the question on ich.All this poor guy wanted was some suggestions to his ich problem and what he got was a debate umung people whos heads are to big for this hobby.My oppinion is this.If you have a fish only tank you can raise the temp of the water and use a copper treatment.But if you have a reef tank its not that easy.And to try to catch the infected fish is not easy either so.Using ginger and garlic is not a bad choice.I have used them in the past and they have work ok for me as long as you catch it intime before it gets into other fish.The ways i have personally found to protect from ich is to quarintine a new fish for around 7 days if possible but if you cannot pic out your fish carefully inspect him in the store make sure he is eating there .and do not buy a fish if it was just shipped to the store wait a week before you buy any fish after being shipped there.And when adding the fish to your tank aclimate it slowly with all lights off except a attintic. and feed the other fish .I persnally also feed garlic mixed into there food once a week it does help the amune system of the fish.Now I no someone here will have a negative oppinion on what i just suggested.It works for me though so all i have to say to those who are negative"WHATEVER" LOL

[chevell]

I think thats about the only way if you can't catch the fish is to feed the garilc foods and wait and see what happens.Don't think I have a huge ego though just thought I would let the guy know what my observations are.

[Thales]

Originally posted by sparkey65
ok i have have been sitting here reading all these responses to the question on ich.All this poor guy wanted was some suggestions to his ich problem

No, he wrote about ginger and how it cured his ich.

and what he got was a debate umung people whos heads are to big for this hobby.My oppinion is this.

So first you insult people, then you do what you are insulting them for? Strange.

If you have a fish only tank you can raise the temp of the water and use a copper treatment.

No. Raising the temp is for the freshwater parasite, not the marine.

But if you have a reef tank its not that easy.And to try to catch the infected fish is not easy either so.Using ginger and garlic is not a bad choice.

Except the efficacy of ginger and garlic are far from shown.

I have used them in the past and they have work ok for me as long as you catch it intime before it gets into other fish.The ways i have personally found to protect from ich is to quarintine a new fish for around 7 days if possible but if you cannot pic out your fish carefully inspect him in the store make sure he is eating there .and do not buy a fish if it was just shipped to the store wait a week before you buy any fish after being shipped there.And when adding the fish to your tank aclimate it slowly with all lights off except a attintic. and feed the other fish .

All good advice.

I persnally also feed garlic mixed into there food once a week it does help the amune system of the fish.

Can you show any evidence that this is what actually happens.

Now I no someone here will have a negative oppinion on what i just suggested.

Strange that you categorize any opinion different than yours as negitive.

It works for me though so all i have to say to those who are negative"WHATEVER" LOL

What was that again about having a head too big for this hobby?

[sparkey65]

yes garlic does work how do i no hmm maybe the fact i have no ich.And raising the temp in the tank will speed up the life cycle of the parrisite fresh or salt.Nothing i said was negative at all actually its a very simple remady for keeping healthy fish.Negative is you who says nothing works maybe it does not work for you.But i would not blame the garlic for that i would blame you.

[sparkey65]

[violation]

[jnfallon]

yikes. time to unsubscribe from this thread.

[harper]

yep

[Thales]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sparkey65
[B]yes garlic does work how do i no hmm maybe the fact i have no ich.[quote]

That is post hoc erog propter hoc reasoning, and it does not necessarily follow that the garlic actually did anything to help the fish. Lots of people say it helps, however there is no real evidence to support this idea. Garlic may do something, but ich seems to clear up or not clear up in the same amounts with or without garlic.

And raising the temp in the tank will speed up the life cycle of the parrisite fresh or salt.

And it is not recommended that one does this to treat ich.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini4.htm

Nothing i said was negative at all actually its a very simple remady for keeping healthy fish.

And I agreed that much of your advice was good.

Negative is you who says nothing works maybe it does not work for you.

I did not say nothing works.

[Nomadic]

.....Wayne, i realize your concern, and sorry that this reply is so late. You stated:

There will NOT always be a better cure. If you have already the perfect cure, you have it.
I am sure there is a miracle cure for ich. But if you don't go at the problem scientifically how do you plan to find. Chance?

Who is to say that copper is a perfect cure? Surely it`s A cure, but perfect?..To me a MORE perfect copper cure is one that can be used in a reef tank without harming the other animals. Is HYPO a cure? yes, but again it`s not perfect either. Yes, some cures do happen by chance,for example: Penicillin.


Would it still have rated as a miracle cure if the sponge extract had killed the cancer and the guy as well? You really think someone told him ' well we've never tested this and don't know if it will help or not but have a go on this, and phone us up if you don't die'? And he said yes?

It would be concidered a miracle cure if it worked and yes, that`s why they have people sign wavers Wyane. To make sure the test subjects realize the risk involved. I`m sure he signed one.

[Nomadic]

Also, forgive me if i lead you to think all repsentitives of the Pharmaceutical are evil. ....Some actually aren`t evil. However, the powers that be in the industry DO want your money and therefore DONOT want you to find a cure, thus putting them out of business.
As Copper and Hypo are concerned, they work, great we`ll use them. Are these cures the only cures man will find ? No. Should we be satified with that? Of course not. There are other cures for Ich that may work differently towards that end or may work better. Thinking that man will not find anything better or different is like believing mankind is ment to stay earthbound and to be happy with the invention of the wheel. ..why look to the stars?


Lefty...i`m sorry, i have no other information for you, i wish i had thought of saving that somehow. I can tell you, it is what happened though. I would have no reason to lie about something like that. You`ll just have to take my word on it.

[Thales]

Lefty...i`m sorry, i have no other information for you, i wish i had thought of saving that somehow. I can tell you, it is what happened though. I would have no reason to lie about something like that. You`ll just have to take my word on it. [/B]

I believe you saw it on TV, I just don't believe it was accurate.

[wayne in norway]

Hi Nomadic
I'm the first to agree copper is not a perfect cure. It is non reef friendly, and takes care to be administered properly though. It does work though.
I wish someone would come up with a perfect cure. I'd rather they went about it in a deliberate way though, but any way is good enough.

Has anyone ever tested/used Octozin, a med reputed to work against flagellated protozoans? I'm still cynical about starting at one end of my spice rack and going to the other.
I supect many pharma companies are suffering from the fact they're listed companies, and have to perform to certain levels (which are somewhat higher then break even) to avoid getting destroyed by the stock market. I don't believe this to be ideal, but it is how it is unless you want government to take a stronger role in drug development

[BCOrchidGuy]

My understanding of this is that we all have ich in our tanks, it comes in on fish, corals and live rock etc. It doesn't seem to take much stress for the Ich to make it's self apparent especially on Tangs etc.
I believe (assumption and hearsay) that when the fish ingests the garlic they digest it or part of it. The garlic gets into the blood stream and the Ich releases and or doesn't reattatch. Some people think the fish get rid of the garlic through osmosis and I have no idea if there has ever been evidence to support it. I've used garlic on reef tanks and found it to work well, I started using it as a preventative measure and fed it with some foods a couple times a week and I had good results. It worked for me, if it didn't or doesn't work for you I can't explain why.
As far as copper I did use cupramine and found it helpful in a hospital tank.

Doug

[wayne in norway]

All I can say is that garlic didn't do anything for me. I can't explain why it didn't, but noone can explain why it does. The fish were still feeding and at that point it was still mild

[tgreene]

Ginger is best when mixed w/ Wasabi

[greenbean36191]

My understanding of this is that we all have ich in our tanks, it comes in on fish, corals and live rock etc. It doesn't seem to take much stress for the Ich to make it's self apparent especially on Tangs etc.

This is a common misconception. It's not in every tank. It's also a misconception that ich is induced by stress. Stress has never been shown to be a factor in infecting fish with ich in trials.

I would also be interested in some data on the 'sponge' cancer cure. I cant find anything on the net about it, no one seems to be using it, so I am skeptical.

There are several tests going on right now with sponge extracts as cures for cancer. Some have killed tumors in rats, and others have killed the tumor and the rat. AFAIK though none have made it to the human testing stage. I think Jasplakinolide is the farthest along though.

[Pike]

This "common misconception" is based on anecdotal evidence. As John eloquently stated earlier in this thread: Just because it's anecdotal, does NOT mean it's without merit. It's based off of an observation, albeit an incidental one. Incedental observations are quite often the impetus for hypothesis.

I think we all can agree that ich is CAUSED by the parasite. ie the tiny white dots on a fish's skin are ich... All in concordance here?

This leads to my next question: WHERE does ich come from? The initial answer is obvious; From introduced, infected livestock, rocks, etc... My dilemma is that I have observed ich outbreaks in normally healthy, but more importantly, CLOSED systems.

Here's an anecdote: My old 15g tall was home to a pair of false percs. All things being equal, I was able to maintain continuous parameters throughout my maintenance. At 11 months, an overnight rockslide occured. The next day my female had a fine dusting of ich on her. The male was un-affected. I immediately replaced the rocks to their previous position & corrected the cause of the slide (an unsecured powerhead). In 24 hours the female's skin was clear. That was the end of my ich episode.

This got me wondering though... Where did the ich come from? My system hadn't had ANY new biological additions for the past 6 months. Anything i'd added to the tank was effectively (biologically at least) inert. Water changes, top off, filters, carbon, supplementation... The only potentially active ingredient that had been added was food. Frozen Formula 1.

This lead me to conclude the "common misconception" that I'm replying to: IF frozen Formula 1 is NOT the source of the ich parasite (& I don't believe it is..), then the parasite must have been in my system the entire time. The fact that the rocks had fallen on top of the brown, fuzzy mushrooms that my female hosted in must have been the outbreak stimuli.

I hypothesize that the the stress she endured caused a momentary drop in her immune system. The formerly supressed & inactive ich, either in her body, or in my system, was able to capitalize on this weakness & infect her. When the stressor was removed, the ich dots went away, never to return again.

Please refute my "common misconception" that ich can remain dormant in an animal or a system longer than the known life cycle of the parasite.

Was it a controlled experiment? Obviously not. The accepted explanation would conclude us to believe I added the ich to my "quarantined" tank.

With all of the above hypotheses, I have my ich theory. It works for me & requires no additional testing to satisfy myself.