natural predator

[fischcrazy]

I just finished reading your article and said that you had forund no natural predator. I keep mantis shrimps and i used to have an isopod problem in its tank until i aquired it. Another RC member has observed this behavior too.on the 4th page in the mantis forums, in this thread Update and new mantis behaviour observed by ninjafish, Psyre talks about his mantis "fishing" for them

[BrianPlankis]

Hey fischcrazy,

Thanks for the heads up, for those of you who don't like to hunt, here is the link:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=745257

This is definitely an interesting behavior and I'm very curious to find out what species of mantis did this and how often. I never observed my mantis attacking the cirolanids, but it is possible they were. There were plenty of them for them to eat that is for sure!

Brian

[MoneyWizard]

Thank you very much for your very informative article! I can't wait to try your "stinky water" method tonight.

I found out that I had Cirolanids just last week. I had my tank running for over 30 days before I added my first fish. Within 2 days he was attacked. I caught the one which I saw attack the fish(he was still attatched) and have noticed a total of 3 in the tank. I've only been able to remove 2 of them so far. I'm now back to a fishless system( my fish is being babysat by a friend).

Hopefully with the information you provided me I will be able to beat these buggers!

Thanks
Ian

[BrianPlankis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6776426#post6776426 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MoneyWizard
Thank you very much for your very informative article! I can't wait to try your "stinky water" method tonight.

I found out that I had Cirolanids just last week. I had my tank running for over 30 days before I added my first fish. Within 2 days he was attacked. I caught the one which I saw attack the fish(he was still attatched) and have noticed a total of 3 in the tank. I've only been able to remove 2 of them so far. I'm now back to a fishless system( my fish is being babysat by a friend).

Hopefully with the information you provided me I will be able to beat these buggers!

Thanks
Ian

Ian,

Please report back on your capture attempts here, it will be very interesting to learn how these methods work in other people's tanks.

Excellent choice going fishless!

Brian

[MoneyWizard]

My first attempt will be tonight. My stinky shrimp is just starting to get ripe. I'll let you know how it goes.

Ian

[Abalone joe]

I to have read your article. It was very informative. Thank you.
Right now I don't have an Isopod problem as I only have freshwater tanks. I've drooled at reef tanks from a distance and have read, read, and read. In the next few months I finally plan to dive in.
My early foray will be diy rock topped with lsf live rock. Concurrent to this setup I plan to start a second LR only system to house florida LR. I only want to use them in their final destination after I can be confident they are Isopod free. I've read a lot of reports about Isopods hitchhiking on Florida LR so I thought this would be prudent. From everything I've read and heard it has life second to none. I'm hoping a few sponges make it through.
I do have a few Isopod questions though.
1. In practice, will all predatory/parasitic Isopods scavenge on dead foods? In other word after bating/trapping them out am I going to be left with a bunch of these pests that have no feeding response to dead foods?
2. In absence of other foods, live or dead, are they likely to feed on sessile invertabrates?
3. Once no more Isopods can be seen or trapped, Is that likely the end of the infestation? If not, how long should I wait from the last siting/capture?
4. After this quarantine with no sitings, How confident can I be in the Isopods erradication?
5. Would keeping the rock in a LR only system for 6-8 monthes be just as effective with none of the work or frustration?
Thank you again.

[BrianPlankis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6798959#post6798959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Abalone joe
I to have read your article. It was very informative. Thank you.

Your welcome

1. In practice, will all predatory/parasitic Isopods scavenge on dead foods? In other word after bating/trapping them out am I going to be left with a bunch of these pests that have no feeding response to dead foods?

No, not all isopods seen in the reef hobby will scavenge on dead foods. There is some speculation that most isopods seen in the hobby are strictly predatory/parasitic, but I've never seen a study that shows that. I think the baiting and trapping will help with the scavenger variety only, and only if there is no other food source (ie. fish) in the tank.

2. In absence of other foods, live or dead, are they likely to feed on sessile invertabrates?

The biology and preferred food source of cirolanid isopods is poorly understood, even in the scientific community, because there are just so many species. However, the vast majority appear to feed off of dead food and/or fish or in rarer cases shrimp. I have yet to see a report of a cirolanid isopod attacking sessile invertebrates and all of my corals, clams, sponges and feather dusters/christmas tree worms did not suffer any damage or losses I could see. I wouldn't worry about sessile invertebrates being victims.

3. Once no more Isopods can be seen or trapped, Is that likely the end of the infestation? If not, how long should I wait from the last siting/capture?

It is still hard to give an exact time for how long to wait. In my case, three days of the stinky water method removed the remainder (8) of my Cirolanid isopods. I then waited another 60 days, and tried the stinky water method 8 more times with zero captures, before I added fish. This was probably overkill, but since brooding females might abstain from traps, I would try at least 3-4 stinky water traps for 30-60 days before I would recommend adding fish.

All bets are off if your isopods are strictly parasitic/predatory, then the recommended wait of 3-4 months is still a good idea.

4. After this quarantine with no sitings, How confident can I be in the Isopods erradication?

For me it was more of a mental thing, I probably did more stinky water traps than were necessary after my last capture, but I did it to raise my confidence level they were really gone.

5. Would keeping the rock in a LR only system for 6-8 months be just as effective with none of the work or frustration?

For the strictly parasitic/predatory cirolanid isopods, yes, 6-8 months would be a great quarantine, assuming you don't get any hitchhiking fish No live food source + 6-8 months = no predatory/parasitic cirolanid isopods.

However, if you have the scavenger variety of Cirolanid isopod and you have hitchhiking corals that would benefit from feeding, then some stinky water trapping is probably the best way to get rid of them and then 2-3 months later you can begin feeding the corals. I had one brain coral that started receeding after no feeding for 2 months and it has looked a LOT better now that I can feed it food again.

It is GREAT you are thinking about this, shows you care about the animals you plan to keep. But remember that Cirolanid isopod hitchhikers are the exception rather than the rule on LR, just not that common, even from FL rock.

That being said, I know that when I get my next LR shipment I'll be doing at least a couple stinky water traps while the rock is in QT, just to see if anything shows up. Very little effort for a very big reward if I find them before they reproduce!

Brian

[Abalone joe]

It's good to here the little devils aren't as common as it would seem. Question; Do you think the predatory/parasitic Isopods have a simular feeding response to the scents given off by live fish?
I'm thinking of designing a live fish based trap for the predatory/parasittic Isopods. Proper screening preventing the fish itself from being attacked.
Do you think this would be effective trap assuming a good design?

[BrianPlankis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6800754#post6800754 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Abalone joe
It's good to here the little devils aren't as common as it would seem. Question; Do you think the predatory/parasitic Isopods have a simular feeding response to the scents given off by live fish?
I'm thinking of designing a live fish based trap for the predatory/parasittic Isopods. Proper screening preventing the fish itself from being attacked.
Do you think this would be effective trap assuming a good design?

Joe,

That is an interesting idea. I think it is entirely possible that scents from live fish would elicit a feeding response. I'll admit that I have read less on the parasitic varieties since I was focused on the scavenger variety.

I think the live fish trap is an interesting idea you could play around with if you ever had parasitic isopods.

One observation I made that might help you in your design. I tried the baited pipe trap in my tank, the one which had a piece of shrimp in the middle surrounded on both sides by tightly packed mesh. It was very ineffective, I'm speculating for one of two reasons:

1. Not enough scent escaped the mesh to attract the Cirolanids. This is probably less likely than #2, as my 3 nassarius snails were constantly trying to find their way into the pipe.

2. The Cirolanids actively seeked their way into my traps, if they don't find a way in, they swim/crawl away to find another way in. So when you design your trap, if they can't get to the fish, I wouldn't expect them to stay around for long if they can't get to the fish.

So you would need to design some way of keeping them from escaping once inside the trap. Also, make sure the mesh protecting the fish has VERY small holes as some baby Cirolanids are around 1/2 to 1 mm wide when first born and could easily slip through most meshes. Feel free to post any ideas/pictures here!

Brian

[MoneyWizard]

Hi there Cirolanid Hunter,

I figured I would get back to you to let you know how the trapping went.

I'm sorry to say not that good.

I made the trap as per your pictures and baited it with the stinky shrimp. Then a poured a bit of the strained stinky water into the tank. This was about 1 hour after lights off. No Cirolanids to be seen! Good thing right!? Wrong! After no sightings for 1 hour I removed the trap. The next morning I went down before lights on and looked around with a flashlight. I saw 2 of the buggers. I was able catch one but the other got away.

I was so happy when nobody showed up with the stinky water, figured I just had the few I had removed earlier and they were gone. Then I see 2 the next morning! Talk about disappointment!

Is it possible my "stinky water" didn't stink enough? I let it sit for about 48 hours. I could sure smell it.

Is it also possible that my cirolanids just don't like shrimp? Should I try a piece of fish?

I plan to make another attempt this evening. Hopefully with better results.

I'll let you know what happens.

Ian

[BrianPlankis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6803220#post6803220 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MoneyWizard
I made the trap as per your pictures and baited it with the stinky shrimp. Then a poured a bit of the strained stinky water into the tank. This was about 1 hour after lights off. No Cirolanids to be seen! Good thing right!? Wrong! After no sightings for 1 hour I removed the trap. The next morning I went down before lights on and looked around with a flashlight. I saw 2 of the buggers. I was able catch one but the other got away.

I was so happy when nobody showed up with the stinky water, figured I just had the few I had removed earlier and they were gone. Then I see 2 the next morning! Talk about disappointment!

Is it possible my "stinky water" didn't stink enough? I let it sit for about 48 hours. I could sure smell it.

Is it also possible that my cirolanids just don't like shrimp? Should I try a piece of fish?

I plan to make another attempt this evening. Hopefully with better results.

I'll let you know what happens.

Ian

Ian,

Well, I'm sorry to hear the first trapping did not go well! Your stinky water was probably stinky enough as long as you used tank water to soak the shrimp.

Did you add any stinky water to the trap with the shrimp? One of the negatives of the trap is that it only has one small opening to release the scent, if you put some stinky water in with the shrimp then you increase the chance the scent will escape the trap.

What is the flow like in your tank? When I did the trapping I made sure the majority of my flow went to the sandbed where my trap was. I then added the stinky water in front of a powerhead that would direct the stinky water directly towards the trap. The ones I captured all flocked to the trap pretty quickly. You could definitely try the fish, any decaying matter should attract them if they are the scavenger variety. I've heard of people using a bloody piece of steak in the trap as well, but I don't like adding land animal meat into my tank.

Also, I used probably 6oz of stinky water each time, how much did you use?

Once you capture one, you should place it in a cup with a small piece of shrimp or fish. See if it tries to feed on the shrimp or fish or a small piece of flake food(mine LOVED flake food). If not, you might have a species that is a parasite, rather than a scavenger. In that case you'll just need to remain fishless for 3-4 months or trap with a turkeybaster/net when seen.

How long have the fish been out of your tank?

It is possible the Cirolanids were otherwise occupied when you tried the stinky water trap. When I did my trapping, it took 3 days to capture the 8 Cirolanids left in my tank. In other words not all of them showed up the first night. This, unfortunately, is a multi-night process

Hopefully you have better luck and report back in!

Brian

[MoneyWizard]

Hi C. Hunter,

Sorry I haven't replied sooner. Busy time of year for me.

My first mistake was not adding the stinky water to the trap with the shrimp. I had just used tank water. I also didn't use 6oz of stinky water directly in the tank. Maybe 2oz at the most. My problem here is that I'm only 25gal. I'm concerned what effect a large amount of stinky water would have on my tank.

Anyways, that said, my second attempt went better. Although I never actually caught any in the trap I was able to net out 2 more. They both appeared within 5 min of adding some stinky water(>2oz). I was able to simply scoop them out. Who knows maybe they would have found the trap, but I figured I would get them as soon as I saw them. I'm not sure if my netting may have scared any others away. After about 1 hour, and no more sightings I removed the trap. I plan to make another attempt in a few more days time.

On a side note. I netted out what I thought was another Cirolanid in the middle of the day yesterday but when I got it on a piece of paper towel to examine it it rolled up into a ball. From what I understand those guys are good scavengers. He was the first one of the 6 (counting him) which I caught that did this. Does this mean I have both? If so what course of action would you take?

I know for sure that 5 of my captures have been Cirolanids. This guy just suprised me.

I'll keep in touch.

Ian

PS
I forgot to add that they apparantly aren't interested in flake food. Maybe it's because of the trauma of being netted out. I left them both in a bowl with some flake overnight. From what I could tell neither of them ate.

Also my tank has been fishless since the day after "the attack"! So 13 days now.

By the way here is a picture of one of them. From your description concerning colour change when eating I think he may be full. Not a good sign.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3...ard/Isopod.jpg

[Abalone joe]

I havn't figured out how to post the pic to the thread but on my gallery you can see a illustraion of my Predatory Isopod Trap. When I reduced the pic/file size for posting some of the detail was lost. With my written desciption you should be able to get a full grasp of it though.

[BrianPlankis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6837224#post6837224 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MoneyWizard
Hi C. Hunter,

Sorry I haven't replied sooner. Busy time of year for me.

My first mistake was not adding the stinky water to the trap with the shrimp. I had just used tank water. I also didn't use 6oz of stinky water directly in the tank. Maybe 2oz at the most. My problem here is that I'm only 25gal. I'm concerned what effect a large amount of stinky water would have on my tank.

Anyways, that said, my second attempt went better. Although I never actually caught any in the trap I was able to net out 2 more. They both appeared within 5 min of adding some stinky water(>2oz). I was able to simply scoop them out. Who knows maybe they would have found the trap, but I figured I would get them as soon as I saw them. I'm not sure if my netting may have scared any others away. After about 1 hour, and no more sightings I removed the trap. I plan to make another attempt in a few more days time.

On a side note. I netted out what I thought was another Cirolanid in the middle of the day yesterday but when I got it on a piece of paper towel to examine it it rolled up into a ball. From what I understand those guys are good scavengers. He was the first one of the 6 (counting him) which I caught that did this. Does this mean I have both? If so what course of action would you take?

I know for sure that 5 of my captures have been Cirolanids. This guy just suprised me.

I'll keep in touch.

Ian

PS
I forgot to add that they apparantly aren't interested in flake food. Maybe it's because of the trauma of being netted out. I left them both in a bowl with some flake overnight. From what I could tell neither of them ate.

Also my tank has been fishless since the day after "the attack"! So 13 days now.

By the way here is a picture of one of them. From your description concerning colour change when eating I think he may be full. Not a good sign.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3...ard/Isopod.jpg

Ian,

Thanks for the update! It is good to hear that the stinky water drew them out. It could be you have the fish parasite only variety, not the scavenger variety as all 10 of the times I tested flake food they started trying to eat it within a few minutes.

Your picture, while a little blurry, does indeed look like a cirolanid. The picture is too blurry for me to be able to tell if it is "full" from a meal. I captured several medium to large Cirolanids that looked full, but died a few days later in my holding containers. There was a wide range of color variation in the ones I caught.

If you are interested in doing a little experiment with any more you capture, get one of those solo plastic drinking cups and fill it with water and one Cirolanid. Check it each day and see how long it takes to starve. You could also try adding flake food after it has been in the cup for a couple of days without food. One test I had wish I had done was let them eat their fill of different kinds of food and see how long they lived after a feeding.

As far as the other one that might be a good scavenger, can you get a picture of it? If it is CLEARLY different than a Cirolanid then I probably would put it back in the tank. However, I had two different varieties of Cirolanid in my tank that had a fairly different appearance (first 2 pictures in my article). If you caught it in the middle of the day (lights on right?) and it could roll up COMPLETELY into a ball, then it is very unlikely it was a Cirolanid.

Yes with a smaller tank you might be a little concerned with adding that much ammonia to your tank. Trapping every few days instead of many days in a row is probably a good idea.

Keep in touch, this is great info!

Brian

[BrianPlankis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6837228#post6837228 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Abalone joe
I havn't figured out how to post the pic to the thread but on my gallery you can see a illustraion of my Predatory Isopod Trap. When I reduced the pic/file size for posting some of the detail was lost. With my written desciption you should be able to get a full grasp of it though.

Joe,

I'm sorry, but that picture is just too small for me to read anything on it. I usually make my drawings in either Microsoft Paint or PowerPoint and then use Microsoft Office Picture Manager to edit them to around 49k.

Brian

[Abalone joe]

The writing I was refering to was not in the pic but in the standard text below. the writing in the pic was written before I reduced the size. The illustration was pade in paint. Try to just look at the contraption itself.

[uargiles]

So our isopods look exactly like those in the pictures... At first my husband and I were reluctant to accept they were bad guys. It was only after our 2 cleaner shrimps and peppermint shrimp mysteriously dissappeared that we started to suspect something was wrong with the tank. Some days later my husband noticed our tomato clownfish desperately swiming from one end of the tank to the other and in the middle of the night. When we lighted her with a flash light we saw she was covered with at least some 50 of those isopods. We took her out, fresh water dipped her to release the bugs but still she died some days later.
And thus the hunt began...

We nothiced we had the bugs in 3 of our tanks, since we are constantly moving things around... The first tank we took appart. We fresh water dipped all the rock (500 bugs or more came out), we threw away the sand and we set up the tank again. It is currently fishless and we dont feed it at all hoping that the remaining bugs will eventually starve.

With the other tanks we use a small rubbermaid container as a trap. We drilled a small hole in the lid and placed a small hose in it. We put some shrimp in it and leave it all night. I believe it is very effective since the amount I trap has significantly decreased with every night.

Still I plan to continue using this method even if I dont catch anything for a few nights just to make sure.

[BrianPlankis]

WOW...500 bugs! I must pass the mantle of most isopods found to you! I'm sure you don't want that title.

I hope your infestation goes away and I would be very interested in knowing if the stinky water method works for you at all.

Where did your LR come from?

Brian

[Abalone joe]

I can't imagine a worse nightmare for that poor Clownfish. Or maybe not. I remember a news report from the mid eighties (ya I'm old) concerning a nice guy who decided to run around for charity. A clandestined effort plagued by thievery and misfortune. During his effort he encountered one of my worsed phobias.
He was jogging through southeast Asia. Tired and exuasted he sighted a cool and soothing stream. What relief, And why not, Where did he really have to be? So, He took the plunge. The report stated that every square inch of his body was covered with leaches!
I later heard he had kept up the fight; Jogging for charity that is. Upon passing through New York city all of his support supplies were stolen, I don't remember what all they entailed but I do remember that after that he gave up just a few thousand miles from the finish.
I'm sure there are many lessons to be learned from his ordeal. Not the least of which is charity sucks.
Joking aside; This is a true story.

[uargiles]

First of all, I live in COsta Rica, so my LR comes from the caribbean coast.

I think we got so many pods because we left the problem unattended for so long and we kept feeding meaty foods very frecuently. And I have read that they dont eat shrimp but we have no other way to explain three shrimp disappearing in a 2 week period.

I didnt quite understand the stinky water method and I am affraid besides that it might pollute my tank since it is small 35 gals. The big tank is 300 gallons perhaps it might help better there. Could you please explain it with detail?

I forgot to mention, my husband uses another method in the tank hes caring for. I cant use it since it involves a tube anemone. Although perhaps its not very effective its quite fun to watch. Just place a piece of shrimp out of the reach of the tube anemone and she will swap any pod that swims near. Its quite a feast although some do get away with a free meal.

[BrianPlankis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6876139#post6876139 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uargiles
First of all, I live in COsta Rica, so my LR comes from the caribbean coast.

I think we got so many pods because we left the problem unattended for so long and we kept feeding meaty foods very frecuently. And I have read that they dont eat shrimp but we have no other way to explain three shrimp disappearing in a 2 week period.

I didnt quite understand the stinky water method and I am affraid besides that it might pollute my tank since it is small 35 gals. The big tank is 300 gallons perhaps it might help better there. Could you please explain it with detail?

I forgot to mention, my husband uses another method in the tank hes caring for. I cant use it since it involves a tube anemone. Although perhaps its not very effective its quite fun to watch. Just place a piece of shrimp out of the reach of the tube anemone and she will swap any pod that swims near. Its quite a feast although some do get away with a free meal.

Welcome to my visitor from Costa Rica. It never ceases to amaze me when something I write gets seen overseas

I have also read they don't eat live shrimp, but again, Cirolanids are poorly studied with many undescribed species, who knows what they all eat? I added a peppermint shrimp to my tank and it was very active and eating for a week (it had been in a QT for 2 weeks before that and in a fellow reefer's tank for 6 months before that, so I doubt shipping/acclimation related), then I found part of what looked like a molt and it never showed up again. Did the Cirolanids eat it? I guess it is possible, but who knows, I also have mantis shrimp in my tank that easily could have whacked it. Another interesting research question for the next unlucky person to get these things.

The tube anemone sounds interesting, but I would be concerned with giving them free meals. I never captured a brooding female (at least with visible babies) in my 380+ Cirolanids captured. The tube anemone might kill some of them, but the ones that escape could continue to reproduce in an endless cycle.

As far as the stinky water method, I'll try to elaborate a little more:

1. Create the trap I detailed in my article (or maybe one of the other traps mentioned in this thread).

2. Soak a piece of grocery store shrimp (uncooked) in a small cup of tank water overnight. This will create your stinky water.

3. Take the stinky water and filter it through a coffee filter, this removes any small food particles that may feed the Cirolanids.

4. Put some of the stinky water (just a few ml) in the trap from step one and add the piece of stinky shrimp as well. Fill the rest of the way with tank water. Assemble the trap and place it in the tank in a low flow area after lights are off(turn off room lights too)

5. Take your cup of stinky water and dump in a few ml of the water into the tank, preferably where it will flow towards the trap.

6. Watch for Cirolanids appearing on the sand or glass. If you are patient they will probably try to find their way to the trap. If you want you can try to use a turkey baster to capture them.

I can understand your concern with polluting the tank, because one of the reasons it smells is ammonia. I would test just a few ml the first time and leaving the trap in for a couple of hours. The next morning and the following evening I would test the ammonia level to see if it is elevated.

If you have a good biological filter it should be able to handle the small amount of stinky water every few days. I did this a few times and I never saw ammonia above 0.1 ppm in my 75 gallon and that was always gone by the following evening. It would be even less of a concern in your larger tank, although you would probably need to use more stinky water to lure the Cirolanids out.

Good luck and if you still have questions about the stinky water method, please tell me what you are having problems with and I'll try to help.

Thanks,

Brian

[BrianPlankis]

So anyone with an update on if their bugs appear to be captured or if they are still roaming the tank?

Brian

[uargiles]

So we still pull out a few every night or every other night (2 , 3 or 4) from the 300 gal tank. Its been quite a while since I pulled out any bugs from the smaller tank but I suspect there are still a few.

It is quite frustrating since we dont seem to finish exterminating them.

We did use the stinky water method in the large tank and they do come out much quicker. The downside with this method is that my husband never cleans up after he uses it and that junk reeeaaallly STINKS and I have to clean it up!

Any way, thanks for the tip, some day theyll be all gone for good.