My Mimic

[huskerreef]

Heres a shot of my new Mimic that I have recently acquired. I set up a Octo tank and was not planning on getting a mimic because of what I have read here but my LFS got one in so what the heck. I have a lot of experience and have reef tanks (1340 gallons), and predator tank (75 gallon Rhinopias) and wanted an octopus so I set one up. He is eating well, live crabs and frozen shrimp right out of your hand. Any advice would be appreciated but I will not respond to people bashing me for having him and those posts will go unanswered. Lets be constructive.

[Opcn]

constructively I think you should return him to make a stand against rare animals being collected in the wild. Thats just me though.

[Thales]

Jim, that looks like a wunderpus rather than a mimic. I suggest you become a member of www.TONMO.com to read and participate in the information/threads on rare and exotic species.

I don't think boycotting animals has ever had any real world effect in regards to their collection - the industry just doesn't work that way. I think education regarding impulse buys is helpful, as well as education regarding the realities of the animals in the wild.

[Gonodactylus]

Try looking at http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~ch...underMimic.htm

I can't tell from the margins of the arms which species it is, although the banding pattern seems more like a true mimic.

The fact that these animals rarely seem to exhibit anything close to the natural crepuscular activity cycle that we see in the wild is disturbing. This may be due to the lack of appropriate light on-off cycles in the aquarium and/or suitable substrate for burrowing. I worry that constant exposure places undue stress on these secretive octopus

Thales and I have a fundamental disagreement concerning the importation and maintenance of these animals which has been aired a sufficient number of times. From what you wrote, you are well aware of those arguments and have chosen to come down on the "What the hell, what will one more octopus matter? Besides, its already been collected." side.

I'm beginning to agree that efforts to curtail the importation of zebra octopuses through public education is a very steep uphill battle that may take too long to protect these animals from over collection. It may be the time to place more effort into export and import regulation. That effort may best be aided by enlisting the diving and tourist industries. A few aquarists saying "let me have mine" and forking over a few hundred dollars a pop can potentially fuel some demand for export, but the local dive organizations in Indonesia and the Philippines, supported by environmentally aware tourists who want of observe and photograph these animals have the potential to exert a lot more pressure.

Roy

[Thales]

The fact that these animals rarely seem to exhibit anything close to the natural crepuscular activity cycle that we see in the wild is disturbing. This may be due to the lack of appropriate light on-off cycles in the aquarium and/or suitable substrate for burrowing. I worry that constant exposure places undue stress on these secretive octopus

I would be interested to know details of the natural crepuscular cycle so I can compare them to what I have observed in aquaria. Hopefully, you have been keeping up on the burrowing I have been writing about on TONMO. The literature says they are active at dawn and dusk, but doesn't go into greater detail. Light on/off cycles and twilight/moonlight/daylight lighting has become very easy to mimic and manipulate in the last few years.

Thales and I have a fundamental disagreement concerning the importation and maintenance of these animals which has been aired a sufficient number of times. From what you wrote, you are well aware of those arguments and have chosen to come down on the "What the hell, what will one more octopus matter? Besides, its already been collected." side.

Just to be clear, I am not a proponent of the 'what the hell, what will one more octopus matter? Besides, its already been collected' position regarding these animals. My thoughts are necessarily more complicated than that due to the nature of the industry.

I don't think these animals should be collected, but I don't believe that that is going to happen anytime soon. I don't think boycotting an animal has any effect. So, I am left trying to figure out a useful way to deal with the animals that are collected for potential captive breeding purposes without encouraging more collection.

I'm beginning to agree that efforts to curtail the importation of zebra octopuses through public education is a very steep uphill battle that may take too long to protect these animals from over collection.

I think public education can have little to no effect on importation and collection because the retail side of the industry has essentially no connection to the collecting side.

IMO, asking people to not buy or talk about these animals in the trade only leads to more of them being collected and more of them being impulse bought. I think honest education and talk about the animals will lead to people not 'trying' them, much in the same way that Morish Idols aren't collected in the numbers they once were. However, not knowing the numbers of zebras in the wild, not knowing how environmental concerns are impacting those populations, and no knowing how collecting is impacting those populations is very much cause for concern.

It may be the time to place more effort into export and import regulation.

This is the only avenue that has ever, AFAIK, had any results regarding curtailing the collection of a particular animal.

I do think it needs to be on the side of the country of origin because if you stop the importation of zebras into the US, they can easily be shipped to different countries that don't care. At the same time, zebra occys range is very large and many countries would need to be in line for regulation to really have an effect - in other words, if Indo says no zebra collection they may still be collected in PI or eventually PNG (ech).

That effort may best be aided by enlisting the diving and tourist industries. A few aquarists saying "let me have mine" and forking over a few hundred dollars a pop can potentially fuel some demand for export, but the local dive organizations in Indonesia and the Philippines, supported by environmentally aware tourists who want of observe and photograph these animals have the potential to exert a lot more pressure.

It can work, but in reality such pressure usually results in some off limits collection areas being established. This is a good thing, but TMK it doesn't/hasen't result/resulted in the cessation of collection.

The people doing the collecting and the exporting are generating money and the local governments are very concerned about keeping them making money. In general, the issue isn't collection, its responsible, sustainable collection. When the collectors understand that the reefs they collect from are limited resources rather than like infinitely supplied supermarkets, they collectors tend to make sure their reefs are taken care of.

The main problem in the industry is that its based on volume. I think a better overall solution would be to shift the industry away from collecting 30 so that 5-10 might survive but are inexpensive to collecting 5 so that 5 survive but are more expensive.

Of course, 'eco toruism' has a plethora of significant negative environmental impacts (dredging local reefs for building materials, sewage, litter, poor diving practices, jet travel, etc) that need to be kept in mind as well.

[Thales]

OH - the eyestalks in the pic look much more like wunderpus than mimic, but a better pic would make all the difference.

[Gonodactylus]

I would be interested to know details of the natural crepuscular cycle so I can compare them to what I have observed in aquaria.

Wunderpus IME and talking to dive guides is active for only a few minutes about 2 crep periods after sunset and before dawn. Some people have told me that they will also come out a bit longer during the full moon, but I have no personal experience diving during bright full moon nights. My experience with mimics is too limited to say anything meaningful about activity. There do seem to be more diurnal sightings than with wunderpus.

I am left trying to figure out a useful way to deal with the animals that are collected for potential captive breeding purposes without encouraging more collection.

Captive breeding> Given that only one small-egged species of octopus has been reared from the egg, that is a pretty ambitious goal. I certainly think we should try if a captive lays eggs, but the prognosis is very poor. If you could get them to feed, that would be a great advance in our knowledge. Right now we don't have a clue as to how long they are in the plankton or what size they settle out. If they could be reared and recruitment occurs, they could probably be raised to adulthood.

However, not knowing the numbers of zebras in the wild, not knowing how environmental concerns are impacting those populations, and no knowing how collecting is impacting those populations is very much cause for concern.

We do not now, nor will we ever have detailed information on how rare these animals are. However, there are a few lines of evidence that provide cause for alarm and that would argue that we take action now. We know that muck habitats, by their very nature, are vulnerable to degradation. The processes that accumulate muck also concentrate pollution. Also, muck diving, starting with Lembeh, is becoming increasingly popular with many for dive guides looking for zebras to show to their customers. They dive at the "right time and in the right place" to see octopus, but usually can find only a handful and can go for months without any sightings at all. I think that saying that we don't know how rare ignores that we know that there are not a lot of them. Certainly the collectors know that they are valuable and yet there are so few coming to market that when a few arrive at U.S wholesalers, it quickly becomes known.

At the same time, zebra occys range is very large and many countries would need to be in line for regulation to really have an effect - in other words, if Indo says no zebra collection they may still be collected in PI or eventually PNG (ech).

Granted that we don't know anything about connectivity and dispersal in these species, but Indonesia (the current major source) is vast and protecting a species within its waters would certainly provide a large refuge.

Roy

[Thales]

Originally posted by Gonodactylus
Wunderpus IME and talking to dive guides is active for only a few minutes about 2 crep periods after sunset and before dawn. Some people have told me that they will also come out a bit longer during the full moon, but I have no personal experience diving during bright full moon nights. My experience with mimics is too limited to say anything meaningful about activity. There do seem to be more diurnal sightings than with wunderpus.

Thanks Roy. Have there been any observations of the burrows over entire nights? I have found mine to be active before dawn and after dark, but for more than a few minutes. During the day, he is either holed up behind the HOB overflow or in a burrow.

Captive breeding> Given that only one small-egged species of octopus has been reared from the egg, that is a pretty ambitious goal. I certainly think we should try if a captive lays eggs, but the prognosis is very poor. If you could get them to feed, that would be a great advance in our knowledge. Right now we don't have a clue as to how long they are in the plankton or what size they settle out. If they could be reared and recruitment occurs, they could probably be raised to adulthood.

Given the access to cultured live foods that I have, I think I have a chance. The problem, of course, is getting ahold of the eggs.

We do not now, nor will we ever have detailed information on how rare these animals are. However, there are a few lines of evidence that provide cause for alarm and that would argue that we take action now. We know that muck habitats, by their very nature, are vulnerable to degradation. The processes that accumulate muck also concentrate pollution. Also, muck diving, starting with Lembeh, is becoming increasingly popular with many for dive guides looking for zebras to show to their customers. They dive at the "right time and in the right place" to see octopus, but usually can find only a handful and can go for months without any sightings at all.

Since muck habitats are so fragile, how worried are you about promoting dive tourism to those habitats? A million people swimming through Lembeh in a year would be... interesting.
Also, do we know if collection has reduced the numbers in Lembeh or if the animals have moved or if they are being killed by other factors?

I think that saying that we don't know how rare ignores that we know that there are not a lot of them. Certainly the collectors know that they are valuable and yet there are so few coming to market that when a few arrive at U.S wholesalers, it quickly becomes known.

I disagree about my statement ignoring that there are not a lot of them, and I think information gathered from Lembeh reflects only Lembeh. Given that these animals are distributed far, we really don't know how many of them there are or aren't.

Granted that we don't know anything about connectivity and dispersal in these species, but Indonesia (the current major source) is vast and protecting a species within its waters would certainly provide a large refuge.

If you could get Indo to restrict their collection, and then enforce that restriction, I think it would be great. Until then, I still am trying to figure out the best action for the animals languishing in LFS - females laying viable eggs in the LFS certainly don't do any of us any good.

[huskerreef]

I can definetly appreciate your educated debate on this creature and both of you seem very educated on the subject. I very much enjoy a spirited debate where the participants put out there arguements and challenge each other with out getting childish. I knew that when I put this here I would get some grief and negative opinions. But I agree with Thales in that boycotting the LFS has little effect on this type of thing. I would consider myself more than a novice and given the choice of someone getting this octo that has limited experience and resources or taking him home myself I like the animals chances with me. I am currently interested in providing this guy with a good habitat, diet and care and hopefully discussing with you all a year from now how he is doing and sharing some ideas.

[Thales]

Just to be clear again, , I would like to see these guys not show up at the LFS. Buying them can reinforce the market, but not buying them from won't stop their collection. Rock, meet hard place.

[Ehudd]

what a battle of wits!
you 2 are intense, there needs to be more people like you 2

[sgolden]

its good to see an intelligent discussion without any flames...and i am glad that someone who cares and desires to understand the needs of the animal has found him....albeit the discussion (here)of all the politics involved seems so moot to those of us who truly do care....i do hope your relationship with your octo is as long lived as possible.....send more pics

[Thales]

Shaun,

If I am reading you right, I think if we rally do care we need to all care about the politics of the industry. Animals have been decimated in the wild by the industry, collecting them till there are no more. Unless we can do something about it, more animals can vanish in the wild because of us. If I misunderstood your point, I apologize.

[sgolden]

i think we are on the same page.....in my reef club i do all i can to educate people on how their purchase lends to the collection of these and other animals.. i even try to educate the retailers (i asked a saleskid to slap the guy who orders the fish, when i saw a possibly mated pair of orange spot filefish...for "only $20 each" and the went on to explain why they would surely starve, and why they should never have been ordered....but as you probably know ...buyers often get many other things than what they order...so i dont know who to blame......anyway....my point was more to the effect that we here understand the impact of such issues...and its the people who arent reading this that need to understand...

[hcity1]

I keep octopuses i find off the reef in my tank, they dont seem to do well in fresh water, I have tried feeding them little pieces of cheese like the pet store said but they wont eat it...any ideas?

[Echidna09]

Why would an octopus do well in freshwater, and why would you feed him cheese?

[justinl]

hcity, how old are you? 100yrs experience? octo in freshwater? cheese? do you have nothing better to do?

[Str8baller]

Originally posted by justinl
hcity, how old are you? 100yrs experience? octo in freshwater? cheese? do you have nothing better to do?

Good questions, I hope to God that you are joking, but if not... DONT FEED IT CHEESE! DONT PUT IT IN FRESHWATER AND TAKE IT BACK TO THE LFS FOR A FEW WEEKS. If you are serous about the octo, read up on the species and learn what to feed it. I am not an expert so I wont try to tell you what food is best, but I promise you its not cheese.

[wazbot]

Ummm, Obvious trolling is it not?

[Pea-brain]

Originally posted by hcity1
I keep octopuses i find off the reef in my tank, they dont seem to do well in fresh water, I have tried feeding them little pieces of cheese like the pet store said but they wont eat it...any ideas?

DON'T LISTEN TO YOUR PET STORE! cheese melts way too fast. i find that pretzels work much better. I'e tried tortilla chips but they get soggy to fast. Also, Octopusses love whole dill pickles, lighty salted and dipped in mustard and half and half :P

Dan

[Opcn]

You had better move it to a bucket of Bleach, preventsinfection you know.

[rabidcrab]

cool pet. i would NEVER feed my octo anything that wasnt from a coral reef. i didnt read all the posts but WTH are u guys talkin about octos in fresh? and various human food for them? whaaat?

[Thales]

FYI,

huskerreef's wunderpus, the subject of this thread, died a couple of weeks after his last post in this thread.

[kurt72]

Originally posted by hcity1
I keep octopuses i find off the reef in my tank, they dont seem to do well in fresh water, I have tried feeding them little pieces of cheese like the pet store said but they wont eat it...any ideas?

i think someone is trying to be funny. at least i hope so!!!

[kurt72]

Originally posted by Thales
FYI,

huskerreef's wunderpus, the subject of this thread, died a couple of weeks after his last post in this thread.

too bad. i am not a "ceph" owner, but I really dig em'. i think they are way cool. but, the few i have seen in my LFS's, i should call PETA on them. that's all i am gonna say.