What Happened to the SPS Forum???

[Nanook]

So, I have been in the hobby just since 2000, but I have slowly watched this forum and the people keeping acropora become increasingly elitist. What happened to the idea of growing acros and fragging them for friends?

It seems that nowadays, everyone has to name a coral by some "super-hobbyist" or "tropical fruit" and call it a "limited edition" or some other catchy phrase, then sell it for high dollar to make a profit.

To add to this elitism, we have decided to add super technology and chemical wizardry to the mix to further elevate ourselves to "THE ALMIGHTY ACROPORA GODS." Heck, to be in this forum you have to spend Tens of Thousands of $$$ in high end equipment The choice of the light bulb, skimmer, salt mix, calcium reactor, additive, etc is about all one could read in here on any given day.

Poppycock I say!!

FWIW, and I am not bitter, but I think it is time we get back to basics and start fragging for fun and for free. This "group think" has done nothing positive for the stony keepers but raise prices on a pink table or a blue stag, or a yellow porites or green stylophora. Heck, I remember when I could get pink tables or blue stags at the LFS here in the midwest up until about 2-3 years ago when they started disappearing.

I am not sure if they are swiped up in Cali and marketed by the big wholesalers to name them and sell them for 10X what they are worth, or if they are just not coming in anymore. But, I can tell you that we have no one to blame but ourselves. I won't pay more for a frag than I would a bucket of salt You might want to buy that $500 SPS packet in the selling forums, but think about it soberly for a minute. Are you buying it because you WANT it, or simply because it is popular? Or, are you buying it so you can in turn sell it and make a large profit?

Either way, in the end, it is the simple reefkeepers that are losing out because of how we have decided to popularize certain corals and then charge each other exorbitant rates for them. Or, that we buy them from the online vendor's charging the big prices instead of letting them come down in price or brown out in their tanks.

I know this thread won't change things, but I think I had to say it to get it off my chest. There was a time when I LOVED this forum and loved reading the threads on keeping acropora corals. In the last 2-3 years it has been changed into an elitist place to discuss who has what "high-end" coral or what $5000 skimmer works best

In getting things BACK to the way they were in the past (just a little), I have asked that we keep all lighting and equipment threads in their appropriate forums. Do I really think there is a difference between skimmer A that cost $3000 and skimmer B that cost $4500??? NOPE Do I care? NOPE

So, that is my rant...you guys can come on this thread and hammer me and further prove my point, or you can come in here and take a breath of the fresh air that was once just a hobbyist growing stony corals for fun and for free, then sharing them for free with his friends.

[reefman23]

I pretty much agree with everything you have said. One of the things that irritates me the most is that many people mention the rising prices of this coral and that coral, but then they go and sell a 1" frag for $$$ or zoanthid polyps at $5 or $20 or $50+ per polyp to fellow hobbyists! YOu are right in that we are doing it to ourselves.

I think that it can be easy to get wrapped up in the high end equipment and all the new gadgets too. I have managed to avid getting sucked in but came close on more than one occasion.

I do hope that this thread has an impact around here and I will be staying tuned to see what others have to say!

Jesse

[happysak]

so sad, so true

[the_anti_honda]

I'm 100% with you on this one.

Just this week I found out how up tight 90% of reef keepers have become. I was giving away my mantis and asked if anyone wanted to donate a frag of something for the cause and everyone had clearly stated that they did not want to frag an LE unless it was for $50 an inch LMFAO come to find out EVERYTHING they had they thought was an LE...... I wouldn't pay $50 bucks a colony for an LE non the less an inch. This hobby has become a joke with designer name corals.

[exhausteve]

Anyways, I saw a skimmer that was $3000, but then I thought the $4000 skimmer that I looked at before was better. So which one should I get? lol
just kidding!!! I agree with you 100%.....even though I am a newer member....I just wanna grow some corals and have some fun doin it!!!!!!!!!!!

[znut Reefer]

Good Point Nanook. Not sure if your post will ever change things. Thats one thing us older reefers have seen is this hobby. Is a lot higher prices on higher end equipment and those fancy names for acros just to command higher prices for frags of them.

I've seen alot of hobbyists just decide to get out of the hobby. Because they say it's not as much fun as it once was. They say it's all about the money and greed anymore. I do believe some come in this hobby only for the money not the true love of reefkeeping like some of us are in it for. I have spent alot of money on those rare and exotic frags myself. But I'm now to the point where I try to work out trades with the ones I have for the ones I'd like to get. I have found it's alot cheaper and it is sharing frags with others.
I'm tired of spending so much for corals. And in time you see their prices drop. I have sold alot of frags here on RC. And I usually sell them for less than I paid. And I'm always willing to share with my friends, provided they are willing to share with me. I know I'm not in it for the money. I have been in this hobby going on 18 yrs now, I do try to sell some frags just to try to get some of my money back. Andi t always goes to lights,salt or maybe a new frag I have been wanting if the price is reasonable.

I have watched venders raise their prices on certain frags too when they become popular. I'm afraid as long as people keep paying the high prices, they will continue to rise.

Some people and venders even sell frags and corals on ebay just to see if they can get more for them.

I'm not one to bid on ebay for a frag. I will decide on the price I'm willing to pay. And not willing to compete with bids for it. Or others.

Maybe one day it will change, but like you said. We have no one else to blame but ourselves and it's up to us to make the changes right?? Or it will continue....

[MammothReefer]

I dunno I still trade frags with my friends, refer to my corals by descriptors ie (colours and shapes).. I think some of it is well... ...I know I wouldn't want to post frag trades on SPS forum out of fear of getting banned..

I do talk about equipment, that costs good amounts of money, but I was lucky enough to trade myself up to a 500gallon system..so I need to support it. I'd rather spend 750 on a skimmer now then.. then buy 10 different cheaper models to find what i need. Specially as I am somebody whom has had very poor results trying to keep sps in the past.. So.. I've come to the conclusion it's cheaper to buy high dollar equipment now (if you can find equip that is actually worth the money and not a scam), then replace corals later

[reefgeek84]

It is typical human nature...Greed. Hobbyist complain about prices, but when they want to sell theirs for as much money as they can get.

We have the power to stop this...If the few hobbyists that have spent the money to get the "LE" corals...and then frag them for 10 bucks or so to other hobbyist...no one will purchase from the people chargin 130 bucks for a frag...but that will never happen cause people are greedy. It is very sad...

Another thing I was thinking about...Do you think that companies that are selling coral with copyrighted names will get in trouble? I mean, we have Superman, incredible hulks, etc. Who knows...

[Unarce]

You're definitely not alone in this, Nanook. There's probably at least one or two posts a month, from hobbyists that whine about this stuff. It's really a moot point.

This is a very young hobby, and it's evolving. Simply put, the law of supply and demand is at work. If everyone stood in the middle of the road, Gap, Inc. wouldn't bother with Old Navy and Banana Republic, or Toyota wouldn't need a Lexus and Scion brand.

Luckily, there's stuff out there for everyone's price range, allowing you to enjoy the hobby, the way you want to

[IanJ]

Here in SE Asia SPS tend to be much cheaper, over the years i also have seen a change in the hobby. Now i see fellow reefers almost fighting when corals arrive at the shops and farms. Pushing and shoving to grab the best coral they can as quick as possible. Even if you were the first to arrive at the shop, it would not ensure that you got your hands into the tank first.
Today people sell on or auction SPS they no longer like or have no room for since they found something better, of course selling it either for a profit. Here i find it hard to believe as the corals can be bought cheaper at the shops.
In the past i would willingly give away frags, even colonies if i wanted a change.
My interest remains high, even more so now SPS tend to be cheaper than LPS, but my collection dwindles as for the past year or so i just cant be bothered with all this hassle to go and shop, sorry fight for corals.

[manderx]

the law of supply and demand is at work

not really. true supply and demand requires intelligent, savvy consumers.

[drummereef]

Hey Nanook, if it makes you feel any better I keep a couple montis under pc lighting in my 40 gallon with a Remora skimmer. YEAH I SAID IT! I dose cheap a** Randy's 2-part and I can say the corals haven't looked better. Great color and solid growth. Not exactly acros but you get my point.





Oh, Nanook, I live on the West side.

[818]

Well, me being from So Cal, Los Angeles County you can get anything from pretty much anyone for a six pack

Yes, of course So Cal does have a lot of commercial business that has to do with this inflation, but the true hobbyist here, are second to none. I wouldn't be learning so much, and expanding my knowledge about the husbandry of such creatures, especially acropora if it weren't for some of the people here. This makes me wonder about new reefers coming into the hobby, they will probably never try and learn so much about colored sticks because they weren't given the chance to, it will simply make them turn the other direction because of the $, or it will give the buyer the wrong idea of what having coral is all about (just because its a "everyone wants," and that sucks.

A lot of people are surprised when they see some of my frags, they say where did you get that, and that, when really I don't even know the name of it, and it must have been freebies at a swap.

I started when I was 17. I'm 19 now, and it has been one hell of a journey

[Dog boy Dave]

Poppycock. I haven't seen a $5000 skimmer ever on this forum. Here in Tally most of us trade and give frags away quite freely. I know several reefers who have loaded entire coolers up with corals for new hobbyists and for those who have lost corals. When I started out years ago, all my first corals were freebies from local reefers. (Thanks Curt and Barbara) It still happens all the time. Our local Fish Store sells aqua cultured corals for under 30 bucks all the time. I bought a nice superman from him for 30 bucks. (I know that there are hundreds of fingers itching to tell me that its not a "true superman" ) In my tank its bright blue with pink polyps. So what if its "aqua cultured" My point is there is plenty of good stuff out there if you don't get caught up in the hype. If you do get caught up then you only have yourself to blame.
If anything, this forum has gotten way down below elitist. Same old questions, (and rants ) over and over about why my coral in my 2 week old tank isn't thriving. Then we get to see 20 uninformed answers about low flow and not enough light. 6 months later we get to see this same person tell us how you only need to treat once for red bugs....
I'm done now..
Be Happy and enjoy the forum.
Dave

[sabodish]

i agree with nanook on this one. when i started in this hobby 12 years ago, i never heard of LE SPS frags at $100-$200 and inch! and even if i did, i was smart enough not to buy them! now, after 12 years i STILL dont buy them! not that i dont have the $, knowledge, or experience, but that i simply find it insane to pay that much for a 1" frag regardless of how rare or beautiful it is.

last year i took down my 360 gallon reef tank that was packed full of approximately 10k worth of coral. some pieces were rare (aquired from trades), and some were run of the mill acros, lps, shrooms. when people would come over to purchase corals i never tried to jack up the prices on them because i knew they had a geniune passion for the hobby. some of my more rare pieces went to people who i knew would NOT frag them up and resell to others for insane profits.

i think we all originally entered this hobby because of the "ooh ahh" factor or a tank we saw somehere..either it be on a website, at an aquarium or whatever. it just seems that the "ohh ahh" factor has gotten INCREASINGLY more expensive in the last 3-5 years or so.

[zt444a]

Nook,

You are one of the best dudes I have met in reefing. I agree 100% with you. I need to get rid of my red bugs before I do any fragging!

Howie

[SDguy]

I don't know, from my limited experiences locally, we are pretty good/fair with each other. It's tough to find the right circle of people though, and weed out those simply in it for the money.

Nanook, to be fair, you really should have brought up vendors. I can think of a couple right off the bat that ridiculously jack up prices for the same corals I see locally. And no, it has nothing to do with location and extra shipping Or even worse, obtaining a coral, somehow determining it to be "Exclusive" or "LE", fragging it to TINY bits, and actually selling those bits...$$$ I find this much more unsavory than some local guy trying to recoup a tiny fraction of the high cost of San Diego electricity. A vendor with national visibility on the web has a much bigger influence on the trends you are mentioning, IMHO, than some local Joe Schmo.

My 2 cents.

[BLKTANG]

I agree 100% as well.I currently have a beautiful sps reef,that was put togeather,by mostly "FREE" frags from local reefers.I maintain many sps reefs for guys who love the look,but dont even know how to check PH,all they do is foot the bill,the biggest being over 1000g in water.This guy who is a multimillionaire just got some of the "SUPER RARE" acros,& paid dearly for them,most of them were under 1/2".Now dont get me wrong they r nice,but common$200 for a 1/4" frag.I c it so much now that its a shame that we cant come togeather as "REEFERS",and help preserve a piece of the ocean without trying to get back all the $$$$$$$ we spend on setting up our tanks.Im sure that we all knew before hand that in order to keep a healthy thriving sps reef that it was not going to b cheap.I got into this hobby after many disasters flying RC helicopters,the last draw being a $6000 Heli that took off on its maden voyage,& i never saw it again.My point is that hobbies are expensive,but shouldnt b at the cost of others.

[Pennoyer]

Not that I've been able to take them up on the offer yet because I'm still letting my tank mature/stabilize, but a couple of people here immediately offered to do exactly what Dave is talking about to help me start back up after Katrina. This was one of the reasons I decided to stick with it and spend the time, money and effort to restart instead of just throwing in the towel. Prior to losing my tank, I routinely traded away frags of whatever I had including the LE corals, which I admit, I fed into the LE machine by paying the $70+ price tag for. I think the ever rising price makes this harder and harder to do, but for me, it will not stop me from doing it once reestablished. To me, one of the best things about SPS is being able to cut a small piece from a coral in your tank -- seeing that same small piece of a coral actually grow and adapt to its surrounding conditions in someone else's tank and seeing how those conditions change the coral. Of course getting one in return to watch yourself is important, but whether it's named or not is not the deciding factor.

I buy (used to at least and just now starting to again) corals and put them in the tank based on what they look like, not because they have a catchy name attached to them. Has anyone ever walked in your house and said, "wow look at that joe blow tort"; no it's always "look at that cool pink one or purple and green one." I wish the prevailing trend would change, but unfortunately, until more hobbyists get back to growing corals for the pleasure and esthetic appeal, it won't. This is difficult because someone has to pay the initial high price for the coral and we'll never be able to change that, its the secondary trading market that is the only hope for a price reduction. Also, I think there are more people out there that feel this way and do still trade or sell corals for a reasonable price, but those people just don't post as much. For example, I check in here daily and read the informative threads, but only post occasionally.

[Waxxiemann]

Originally posted by Pennoyer

I buy (used to at least and just now starting to again) corals and put them in the tank based on what they look like, not because they have a catchy name attached to it. Has anyone ever walked in your house and said, "wow look at that joe blow tort"; no it's always "look at that cool pink one or purple and green one." I wish the prevailing trend would change, but unfortunately, until more hobbyists get back to growing corals for the pleasure and esthetic appeal, it won't. I also think there are more people out
there that feel this way and do still trade or sell corals for a reasonable price, but those people just don't post as much. I check in here daily and read the informative threads, but only post occasionally.

I totally agree with this. I generally never know what the names are until after I get it home =)

[coralnut99]

I'll agree and disagree.

I think it was mentioned above, that if you think desginer-named sps prices are off the wall, check what people are asking for funky-named zoas. With so many different possible color combinations, all you have to do is come up with a killer name for it, and the price triples. SDguy, I think all the stores have done is followed these boards and see what people are willing to pay, and charge accordingly. All they've done is jump on the badwagon.

So is this unique? Not really. I think any of us that have other hobbies and passions see that there's elitism in all of them. And that's the element that drives up prices for certain items for people who have to have it, and are willing to pay the price.

Remember when Acans were all of a sudden this have to have coral? I remember seeing prices in low 4 figures! That was absuolutely insane, just like $25 a polyp for whatever color PPE palys. I wouldn't pay that, but some will. does that ruin the hobby? Probably not. I've seen far more of people willing to swap and give away frags than those trying to turn their lving room dsiplay tank into a museum display of the rarest and most expensive.

I don't know Steve Tyree, but is he related to LE, lol?!

[trottman]

Originally posted by zt444a
Nook,

You are one of the best dudes I have met in reefing. I agree 100% with you. I need to get rid of my red bugs before I do any fragging!

Howie

heck with that! you are one of the BIGGEST dudes

(i can tell you were to get water for your tank anytime. just call)

[tnyr5]

I think it's true that there's some supply and demand going on here, but i also think it's a special kind of supply and demand, one that needs a dose of psychology to explain properly.

let's take a look at a scenario -
A new coral comes on the market, and like most new corals, only a few come in at first. For the sake of simplicity lets say it's because the wholesalers don't want to invest in a new coral if it's not going to sell. However, like a lot of new corals, it becomes instantly famous either because of a new ( i say new, not necessarily better) color or growth structure.

Let's now factor in the incessant ( and sometimes annoying) bragging of a percentage of the few people that got it first. A lot of people now feel slightly inferior for not having such and such a coral.
Couple this with the naturally competitive nature of our hobby (I like all you guys too but let's face it we DO compete fiercely, either to be the person with the biggest coral, the rarest coral, the best equipment, the most knowledge, the first to breed a certain fish etc etc etc)and the fact that some people become genuinely addicted to the hobby :-), and what we get is a semi-inflexible demand.

For those who don't know, inflexible demand basically says that people will buy said product no matter what the price because they need it ( or at least they think they do, which is where the addiction/ peer pressure comes in). I say semi-inflexible demand because I really think if prices went EXTREMELY high ( thousands per frag) most people would come to their senses. I could be wrong, but i hope i never get the chance to test my theory -_-.

In a situation of inflexible demand the seller has all the power. One need only look at gas prices to see what I'm talking about. It's just how economics works. It's not good, it's not bad, it just is. calling people to stop buying them won't help, 1. because some can't help it. 2. because some people will just use it as a way to get the corals faster. and 3. because there are lots of people who won't do anything other people tell them.

The fact that these are living creatures that grow actually leaves a window open to beat the system. If I were to buy one of the newer high -end coral frags and grow it out, I could trade for most of the others that are perceived as equal in value. That, however, requires patience, and if lots of people had that, we might not have this inflexible demand situation in the first place :-).
Sorry if i sounded harsh in spots, i just thought it'd be interesting to look at it from a different perspective. That said, reefing is still a heck of a lot of fun :-).
tony

[RCS]

Everyone giving away free frags and colonies, please PM me and I'll provide my address where you can send them to. I'll even split shipping with you.

While I agree in sentiment on a lot of these thoughts, we're all big boys and girls and we can vote with our dollars. If you don't want something, don't pay for it. If you want it and don't want pay for it, then don't whine about it when you don't get it. Everyone wants to point the finger at someone else. Look in the mirror before you try laying blame at someone else's doorstep.

If there weren't buyers, there wouldn't be sellers.

[zt444a]

Originally posted by trottman
heck with that! you are one of the BIGGEST dudes

(i can tell you were to get water for your tank anytime. just call)

Truly said