Help me figure out what's wrong w/ my parents tank!

zacharytrimble · #1 12/21/2007, 10:02 PM

Ok, here's the lowdown. My parents have a 120 high, with only 80 pounds live rock, 120 pounds live sand. They have small amount of copper in their tank to treat ich...ammon, nitritrite are 0, but they do have some cyano and some nitrates/phosphates...due to high fish load and they don't use ro/di. They have a super skimmer 125 in it with a 29 gallon sump. The tank is 6 months old

Their water has never been clear...ever. and here's my problem...there are only thousands of tanks out there with not quite enough rock...cyano problems...underskimming...no ro/di...etc...but their water is still clear. How do they get their water clear? nitrates don't cloudy water do they? and yeah, there's not enough live rock...but there's still enough bacteria to keep ammon at 0....and I've had high ammonia before and crystal clear water...so what's up?

pledosophy · #2 12/21/2007, 10:07 PM

To many variables.

Lighting, flow, feeding.

Many many things.

zach0660 · #3 12/21/2007, 10:09 PM

Sounds like a huge problem..
Start doing water changes with RO/DI water.. A super skimmer 125 is nowhere near enough for a 120gallon. The first thing i would do is buy a BIGGER skimmer, especially with having a high fish load

zacharytrimble · #4 12/21/2007, 10:10 PM

Some clarification. They very sparingly feed their fish once a day. (and I have a sparingly fed reef, so this is coming from a conservative). They do lack in flow...they probably have about 1000 gph in their 120 right now. And yeah, I know there are a lot of variables...but I used to work at an lfs where all of the wrong things were happening as well...and the water was still clear (it just had nice thigns like hair algae and dying fish). I'm looking for some ideas as to things we haven't thought of.

Fraggle Rock2 · #5 12/21/2007, 10:11 PM

How much feeding occurs? What sort of water movement?

I don't think 6 months is really all that long, so it could still be in a cycling phase. That could include a bacteria bloom or a boom in the pod population (pods shed their "skin" as well).

What happens after a decent sized water change?

It could very well be a combination of an undersized skimmer, poor circulation and the age of the system.

You could try activated carbon and/or some other form of mechanical filtration like a filter sock or polyfiber (replaced every day).

demonsp · #6 12/21/2007, 10:13 PM

Water source. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/water4maruse.htm

Flow problem. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature/view

CUC to low or wrong type.Over stocking or over feeding.Lack of water changes or to few.Many reasons.Take a step back and look at it from a newbies view. First it would be nice to rule out the water source but cant. The tap water source doesnt show its ill affects for months or yrs and by then its even harder to solve.
It would help with more info like all equipment, change scedule , CUC and stock type.
Also this might help.

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/sta...opmistakes.htm

zacharytrimble · #7 12/21/2007, 10:20 PM

They feed literally a "pinch" of about 20 small pellets of new life spectrum once a day, every day to....(Here comes the overload for age of aquarium)...3 firefish, 5 chromis's 1 yellow tang 1 sailfin blenny 1 flame angel 1 coral beauty angel (1) 6 inch dragon goby, 1 percula clown a couple 1" hermit crabs... the flow is simply accomplished via the "megaflow" system with 4 outputs...again, counting head loss...they ahve about 1000 gph in their display.
I think the kind of question I'm asking has to do with things like...ok, obviously, this system leads to nitrates...but do nitrates cause cloudy water (I know they cause coral death, cyano/hair algae, etc.)....or another example...I know they don't have enough lR and therefore enough bio filtering...which could lead to a small amount of (although not lethal) ammonia...but does ammonia cause cloudiness.....or...does ammonia + nitrates cause cloudiness. I'm asking these newbie questions because I've see literally hundreds of tanks with worse readings than my parents and more overstocking...but still with clearer water.

scotmc · #8 12/21/2007, 10:22 PM

You have been a member since 2005. Why did you let them set this tank up like that? It's far too young to be overstocked. Copper should not be in the main tank. The least of your problems should be clear water. It is only a matter of time before the major alage breakouts occur. No skimmer, RODI and poor skimmer.

I would get the copper out, reduce the fish load, get a better skimmer and run carbon to polish the water.

zach0660 · #9 12/21/2007, 10:26 PM

I have heard of nitrates causing cloudy water.. But sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I would consider finding some of the fish a temporary home until you get the problem figured out. Way too many fish for a 6month old tank

zacharytrimble · #10 12/21/2007, 10:29 PM

If we're in the business of personal scoldings...(1) who said I "let them"...I was screaming NO!!!Wrong!!! the whole time...but parents don't always listen to kids. I always show them my reef tank and say, "see, it takes work, research and doing it right". (2)...since you just registered this year, maybe that's why you don't know you can't just magically "take copper out" of a tank, as it releases slowly from rocks and sand as well....and "No skimmer, RODI and poor skimmer wouldn't even make sense even if it were a complete sentence....

zacharytrimble · #11 12/21/2007, 10:30 PM

"I have heard of nitrates causing cloudy water"....that's the kind of reply that helps

demonsp · #12 12/21/2007, 10:32 PM

A strait pellet diet isnt good at all. It tends to collect and decay in areas that have low flow and build overtime. Tangs also need some seaweed in there diet via Nori. I use flake and pellet in the morning but alternate and skip 1 or 2 days,and only what they can eat in 1 or 2 min. Then frozen at night from omega3 brine and marine cusine, mysis shrimp ,cyclops and what they can eat in 2 or 3 min. Its not how often they eat but how much that hurts the tank. They will be happier with more feedings with less then less feeding with more.

You need to start changing out the water to RO/DI ,increase flow add some more CUC and do some healthy water changes like 33% every week for a month then 20% weekly for a month then 10% weekly untill your readings drop.
They need to get some good test kits as this help catch problems early. Increase the LR and base is fine but with the proper amount of LR and proper flow the LR will convert ammonina and nitrate into harmless nitrogen.
This will all help but will take a few weeks for positive results.

You say poor skimming but does it collect?

demonsp · #13 12/21/2007, 10:33 PM

A good HOB filter minus any bio wheels.And if you have bio balls then remove them slowly as they dont help.

zacharytrimble · #14 12/21/2007, 10:35 PM

Yes, they do get a nice mocha-brown skimmate...one thing I have to say about those super skimmers...even though I had a small one on my 75 for a while...they do skim...

zacharytrimble · #15 12/21/2007, 10:36 PM

Good thoughts demonsp...I never thought about those pellets collecting before

scotmc · #16 12/21/2007, 10:40 PM

Your parents must think a lot of you, not to take you opion. The apple fell far from the tree I see.

demonsp · #17 12/21/2007, 10:42 PM

Its a combination over low flow and low CUC and the type of food.If you have all 3 wrong then its trouble with a capitol T. If you have proper flow and the right CUC then you may be fine or Proper flow and bettr feeding habits then you maybe fine. Take out 1 of the 3 factors and you maybe fine take out 2 then your in trouble.

zach0660 · #18 12/21/2007, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zacharytrimble
"I have heard of nitrates causing cloudy water"....that's the kind of reply that helps

Theres no need to get personal here.. people are just trying to help you out bud

zacharytrimble · #19 12/21/2007, 10:46 PM

Alright...enough...look...this is a consortium of ideas and knowledge to help one another...I think you can't really deny you made some assumptions and some comments that weren't really "constructive." Nonetheless, It was my wrong choice to make the decision to return the favor...I'm already frustrated about my parents tank...I'm simply asking for tank-issue related posts...not personal slander.

demonsp · #20 12/21/2007, 10:51 PM

LOL. Sorry but we all can be acused of that and if you came in here often im sure you would be inclined to a smart remark or 2.I know i have. But its just human and we are all human. But you must admit even with such a broad question you are getting lots of great advice.

zacharytrimble · #21 12/21/2007, 10:53 PM

True...thanks guys...you've mentioned several helpful things...

yellowwatchmen · #22 12/22/2007, 12:32 AM

How would any of this help if they won't listen to you?

Fraggle Rock2 · #23 12/22/2007, 12:33 AM

Found this using Google. It's from a freshwater article, but I am sure it applies:

White or Grayish Water
If the water is cloudy immediately, or within an hour or two of filling the tank, it's probably due to insufficiently washed gravel. Drain the tank and rinse the gravel until the water runs clear. That should resolve the problem. If washing the gravel doesn't solve the problem, the next most likely cause of cloudy water in a newly filled tank is a high level of dissolved constituents such as phosphates, silicates, or heavy metals. If you test the water, you'll no doubt find the pH is high (alkaline). In these cases, treating the water with conditioners will often resolve the problem. Another option, that has many benefits beyond resolving cloudy water, is to use RO (Reverse Osmosis) water. Your local fish shop may sell it, or sell units capable of making RO water.

Often cloudy water doesn't appear the instant an aquarium is set up. Instead it appears days, weeks, or even months later. In these cases the cause is usually due to bacterial bloom. As the new aquarium goes through the initial break in cycle, it is not unusual for the water to become cloudy, or at least a little hazy. It will take several weeks to several months to establish bacterial colonies that are able to clear wastes from the water. Over time that cloudiness will resolve itself.

Decaying plants or excess food that remains uneaten, can also cause the milky water seen in bacterial bloom. Regardless of the cause, don't panic over bacterial blooms. Keeping the aquarium very clean by removing debris such as decaying plants and uneaten food, vacuuming the gravel regularly, and performing partial water changes, will quickly resolve most cases of bacterial bloom. Cut back feeding to every second or third day, which will cut down on excess food decay. If there are particles of debris in the water that you are unable to remove via water changes and vacuuming, a flocculent may be used to clear them away. Flocculents cause particles of debris to clump together so they can easily be removed by the filter (be sure to clean your filter so it's working at peak efficiency). Flocculents are generally marketed as water clarifiers, and may be found at your fish shop.

Another link:

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/aqu...loudywater.htm

So, I say it's either or a combo of:

1) bacterial bloom
2) uneaten food/detritus
3) copepods and shedded skin

Also, I think the personal attacks and tank policing are unbecoming and just drag the forums down.

MrSpiffy · #24 12/22/2007, 01:26 AM

I would have to agree with Fraggle Rock2 on this one. I think there's a combination of issues that are causing the cloudy water.

1. Using RO/DI will probably help. Reducing the amount of heavy metals, nutrients, etc. that end up in the tank from the contaminated water coming from the tap would certainly be a good thing, no matter what.

2. It could most-certainly be a bacterial bloom. I've heard of these causing milky-looking water before.

3. Combination of 1 and 2, which is most likely, here.

The reason I say it's a combination is because if there's a lack of water changes, you get build-up of nitrates. If there's an undersized skimmer, it might not be catching everything it needs to, even if they're not feeding much, which would decay and cause ammonia and nitrite, which feed bacteria. Use of tap water includes metals, nutrients, etc. which might not normally be found in seawater. Some examples would be chlorine and chromium. Start using RO/DI, and do some larger water changes and you'll probably start seeing the water clear up a bit.

Also, as was mentioned earlier, you can try to help it clear up faster by using carbon. This will help take some contaminants out of the water, but you might need to change it fairly often, as activated carbon can become inert after only a short period of time in the tank (3-4 days or so) if there are a lot of contaminants to bond with the carbon.

I'd avoid using water clarifiers. The only reason I say this is because they're just more chemicals to add to the water. Reduce chemical usage to a minimum, only supplementing what's necessary (e.g. calcium, magnesium, carbonate/bicarbonate for alkalinity, etc.).

I would suggest the above corrections, along with a larger skimmer and possibly more flow. The new Koralia pumps are pretty popular and provide a good value for the money. And this isn't just about the skimmer size, but also about the amount of water that gets processed through it. It's pretty widely known that skimmers are over-rated for tank sizes. So a a skimmer that says it's good for a 125 might only be really useful for a moderately-stocked 90. Notice that specs on the Coralife Super Skimmer 125 say a "maximum of 125 gallons" for tank size. However, undersized as it may be, I would focus on using RO/DI and doing water changes more often first. Then worry about the skimmer.

I realize that your parents chose to take their own path to setting up the tank. But it's time to force their hand. Unless they want all their livestock to die (including live rock/sand, which can all end up being very costly), then they need to start doing things the right way, not their way. Fish and other aquatic life don't give a care what people want to do. They have specific requirements, and it's up to the aquarist to provide a good home for them. Obviously you already know that. But perhaps you should show your parents some of the responses here to demonstrate that you know what you're talking about, and that change is required. Even stubborn people will usually yield to a swarm of unhappy responses.

I wish you the best of luck in getting all of this corrected. It won't be an easy fix, by any means. But I know that you can do it, even if you need some help. We're here for you, man!

We have your back.

demonsp · #25 12/22/2007, 01:29 AM

Yup a combination of water source ,lack of flow , and overfeeding.