Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?"

[Claeth]

My SPS growout tank, a 75 gal uniquarium is basically bare bottom on one half of the tank (where the coral rack is) and a thin (1/2"-1") black hawaiian sand and rubble substrate on the other half. More sand than rock rubble. I believe that the rock rubble pieces shouldn't be stacked on top of each other to avoid detrius build up. The rubble in there acts more like an anchor for the sand in the high flow than for actual substrate. Also, I use the rubble as frag bases, and constantly replace the used rubble with new. The few problems that i've run across with the rubble is that it does trap copious amounts of detrius, even with the extremely high flow rates of my SPS system. This is easily maintained by simply gravel vacuuming the sand/rubble every time I do water changes. I also believe that by using the rubble pieces as frag bases, and constantly removing and replaceing them, I also am removing any concentrated toxins that the rubble may have absorbed, not to mention that the substrate gets stirred in the process.
Bieng that there is no large live rock pieces in the tank, I replaced the bio-balls in the built-in trickle filter system with about 25 lbs of live rock rubble as well for biological filtration. This tank has been up and running for 3 years now, and I have found great success with growing and propagating even the most difficult species of SPS corals like the Acropora hyacinthis (table acro) and I like the way it looks especially with the black sand. The only issues that ive had with this system is Nitrates, due to the trickle filter, even with the rock rubble as the main filtration media. While I would reccommend this method to others who are concious of their husbandry and regular water changes, I would strongly discourage weekend warriors to use rock rubble as a substrate to those who are lax in their maintenance routines. This setup definitely requires more maintenance than the standard sand bed tank, and would prove to be problematic if the regular water changes were not done. One thing that definitely helps with this issue is the use of the services provided by the copius nubers of Nassarius obsoleta and N. illanissa snails which constantly stir the sand by burying themselves and coming out for food. I believe this also adds to the health of my SPS corals by providing an additional food source, mmmm fish poop.

[cwschoon]

Claeth: a few giant pieces of live rock would help a great deal with nitrates. Anerobic bacteria in the middle of the rock will consume it. Better a few big pieces than the rubble you probably have in your trickle filter.
Last week, I put down a very shallow layer of CC and my "rubble"-so far-is several mushroom rocks. It looks great and would like a few pieces of Tonga. Do any of the sites like Dr. Mac sell Tonga in less that box quantity? Know any stores in the Northern VA/DC/ Balt area that sell Tonga rock?

[Claeth]

cwschoon,

I agree that some large pieces of Live rock would help out my system, yet the only issue that i have with adding it now, is the fear from the rock bieng not completely cured, and causing an issue that could easily wipe out $1000's of dollars worth of beautiful sps corals. It's too risky to try it. If I were to rebuild the system for any reason, I will definitely add some next time around. For now, the system is great. Sorry I don't know of any, you may want to try mail order, ive heard that Oceanpro aquatics sells some nice tonga and kaelini rock.www. oceanproaquatics. com

[Whaledriver]

I hate to sound like a broken record but I don't want someone to read this thread and set up a tank that is going to cause problems in the future. We have to learn from the past and not make the same mistakes by using a different name and saying its a new thing.

A rubble bottom that collects detritus will eventually create a problem in a tank. There is a place for a deep sand bed but putting that under a rubble bottom is just going to create problems problems. To put crushed coral in a place that collects detritus is going to create nitrates by design.

"The only thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history"

I think the rubble bottom is one of the most interesting ideas to come along in awhile. It recreates a area of the reef that has been impractical in the past.

[algaeguy]

Does anyone have any updates on their rubble-bottom systems?

I'm particularly curious about your water parameters and maintenance practices.

I'd certainly like to hear from anyone who is working with this method!

Scott

[miatawnt2b]

Mine is doing great with a large bioload, though it hasn't been up very long (about 8 months).

90 Gal mixed reef, sps, lps, softies, shrooms, 20G sump.
Ehiem 1250 return, Seio 1500 for flow.
DIY recirc skimmer pulling about 1/4 cup nice dark skimmate daily.
About 1 gal Cheato in the sump. (would like more but don't have room)
1 quart Remote DSB in the sump.

150lb liverock (estimated)

Yellow Tang
Convict Tang
Green Chromis
Coral Beauty Angel
Half Black Angel
Peach Skunk Clownfish
Engineer Goby
Diadema Pseudochromis
2x Banner (Bangai) Cardinal
6 Line Wrasse

Pistol Shrimp
Peppermint Shrimp
misc snails and a few hermits.

As for maintenance, 3 gal waterchange every week. Once per month, I blow what detritus that does collect (and it is a fair ammount) around with a MJ1200 before my waterchange. Then I either drain my 3 gal with the suspended clowd, or I run a canister filter for a few hours depending on my mood and the time I have. I also prune the cheato once a month.

So far so good, params are good.

As with any reef, I think success depends on how much care you give it. I like the idea of a rubble bottom because it's easy to suspend ditritus and siphon it off, I also am never going to have to worry about a DSB crash. My thought was to change out my RDSB in the sump once a year. (it's in a rubbermaid container, so I can just pull it out, take out a cup of sand to reseed the new bed, throw the rest away.

-J

[Don424]

My 75g FWLR & a couple tube corals that has RUGF, canister and a "Rubble Zone" is doing just fine. I've done additions very slowly for over 8 months now.

All the parameters are good.......though nitrates were 20 before my water change 1 hour ago( I was 4 days late with this change so that's probably why they were a little high)......had been about 5-10 & PO4 is zero...........let's hear it for Purigen & Phosguard & RO/DI water...........algae on the glass or my powerheads is minimal at best and coralline is starting to spread

I'd consider my bioload low(but enough not to start problems) so that helps. My skimmer isn't working real hard.......just emptied 1/2 a cup of watery stuff today after the last empty 5 days ago. My fish eat 99% of what I feed once a day before it has time to settle and the scavengers I have eat the rest. I don't know........maybe it's just good maintenance every 2 weeks.............only takes 20-30 minutes to do what I have to do so it's not like its an inconvenience.

The rubble zone is a favorite area for my little solar wrasse and 2 small yellow coris. There is some kind of copodic or other life down in the zone cause those 3 fish are always poking and picking around there.

So far so good.

[algaeguy]

Good to hear!

Once again, it seems like the common denominator for success with rubble-based systems (or any system, for that matter!) is consistent maintenance practices, sound stocking, and slowly bringing up the bioload.

It's neat to observe the "foraging" that the resident fishes engage in. A truly natural behavior!

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

Scott

[Konadog]

Scott, I haven't had much time to update a few threads, but my tank is still going strong with a rubble bottom. As far as detritus accumulation, I have more gather under a few large rocks than in/under the rubble. I think the key here is flow. The biggest enjoyment of my rubble bottom is watching my wrasses pick thru looking for pods.

[Don424]

Originally posted by algaeguy
Good to hear!

Once again, it seems like the common denominator for success with rubble-based systems (or any system, for that matter!) is consistent maintenance practices, sound stocking, and slowly bringing up the bioload.

It's neat to observe the "foraging" that the resident fishes engage in. A truly natural behavior!

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

Scott

You hit the nail on the head with the common denominator. And Konadog is right ...........you need good flow. Problems that occur in tanks are a message. Many in the hobby don't read, listien or see the message because of lack of patience.

More than anything else I've learned about different equipment, fish, corals, or setups etc. in this hobby, is I think I've finally learned PATIENCE...........doing small incremental steps. Any problems that come up during those slow steps are a lot easier to deal with and correct with damaging an entire system.

[Don424]

I meant to say WITHOUT damaging an entire system. Sorry'bout that

[algaeguy]

I'm really glad to hear that the concept is working for everyone!

I've been giving a lot of thought to different kinds of aquascaping ideas incorporating rubble bottoms and different types of rockwork.

I saw some show on MSNBC the other night about the search for Atlantis, and they were showing some underwater scenes from Bimini, where you have (wether it's natural or artificial-to be debated elsewhere!) a more-or-less rocky bottom with lots of little channels. Like any other fish dork, I was more interested in the underwater scenes than the topic at hand...and I thought it might be an interesting type of bottom to duplicate.

This would be BIG (6"-12") flat slab-rubble pieces with little channels here and there...I was thinking that it might be cool to play with a concept like this, and maybe mix in a sandy area where I can plant some of my seagrasses. More to think about...!

Scott

[Konadog]

To funny Scott, when I saw that show some time ago, I was thinking the same thing about the underwater scenery. I asked, how could this be done in my aquarium.

I had another thought after seeing that, I wonder what reefceramics would do on the bottom partially covered with sand? Kind of the same idea.

[algaeguy]

Interesting, Ken!!! Wow- those reef ceramics would be perfect.

How are they encrusting in your tank now? I'll bet they look pretty darn natural!

I have a picture I cut out from the LA Times travel section about 4 years ago of a group of people snorkeling over the Great Barrier Reef, and the topography of the site they're snorkeling over is basically an aggregation of flattish rocks with lots of cool passages. I've been trying to figure out how to duplicate that as a "bottom" (well, actually an entire aquascape) for some time now.

Some many ideas going through my head right now...

Scott

[Konadog]

Originally posted by algaeguy
Some many ideas going through my head right now...

.......... and such a clean slate to play with

The ceramics do look nice. They aren't as dark as the rock yet, but encrusted just the same. When things prove to me that they are going good, I plan to put a few clams on the walls.

The thing about the wall plates is that they are bigger at the bottom, so if you were to use them on the bottom, you would have a slight slope to the front. Provided you put the thicker part towards the back. Fill in some of the deep crevices with sand and it would look quite interesting I think.

Time for a new thread "Anyone Tried a "ReefCeramics Bottom?"

[discocarp]

How are all of your rubble systems working out? Any pictures/updates?

[miatawnt2b]

still going great here. I don't have any pics, but will try and get some.
-J

[discocarp]

Pics would be wonderful! How do you have the tank setup? Are you using the RUGF or something closer to a BB methodology or something different? How long has it been running successfully now?

Congrats on the success! That's great news!

[miatawnt2b]

Set up for almost a year now, Faux sandbed completely covered with one layer of 1-2" rubble. I really like not having sand.

-J

[Whaledriver]

I have a 30 gallon tank with a under gravel filter plate. I have 2 reverse flow power heads providing flow. I also have a hang on the back refuge and a Red sea skimmer that has a surface intake. I was running on pretty low light with just 15 watt fluorescent and plan on upgrading. The only problem I have had is algae growth but I didn't have anyone in the tank to feed on it. I added a hermit crab and hope it helps.

All things considered I would say its a great way to not go bare bottom. Lots of pods and mysis also.

If I were to do it again I would do a closed loop with a SQWD with maybe a Rio2500 and put it under a rock in the tank. I think the pulse under the plate would be cool and keep detritus in suspension. Its not a problem now but I think this would add something.

[algaeguy]

Great to hear about everyone's long-term success. I don't think it can be stated often enough that the production of natural food sources (ie; copepods, mysids) and foraging areas is a huge collateral benefit of these systems. For those of you that are keeping lots of corals in rubble-bottom systems, have you noticed any difference in their growth/overall health as compared to other systems that you've maintained them in?

Seems like the common denominator in these systems is the use of lots of good flow and a population of fishes that like to forage (ie; Wrasses and Angelfishes). Keep the information coming!

Scott

[miatawnt2b]

one of these days I'll get hold of a seio controller and set a couple high flow stream pumps pointed at the bottom. That should keep the detritus in suspension. For now, I have been using a canister filter filled with floss during my water changes.

-J

[DidYouSayReefer]

This thread is awesome. It has taken some time to read but I think it is a must for everyone. I am going to give it a try. I will be moving in a month. I am going to start slowly siphoning out my sand. This will help me for the move anyways. Is there any way to make the dirty sand clean so I can save it for a future RDSB? After the move I will start the tank using the RUGF with about 3"-4" of rubble on top ranging in sizes from 1"-3". I have been looking to do I have been lokking to do something to help create a more natural environment. This will help provide a more constant food source. I have alos had problems keeping my sand clean and white so this should help. Is everyone employing this system drawing their water that is pumped into the rubble from a sump or the display tank? I feel that if it is pulled from the display, when you feed, it will just push some of the food into the rubble. I am thinking of having 2 returns from my sump. One to feed above and one to feed below to make sure there is oxygen for everyone. Any thoughts on this?

As far as coral and fish go, anyone have good suggestions for a 29 gal? I have a couple of montis, zoos, rics, and leathers. I only have one true perc and one royal gramma.

[ryan_paskadi]

I have a deep sand bed and lots of rubble in my tank....no ditritus buildup. I dont siphon or do anything to it. The rubble areas support lots of bristle worms and maybe they are consuming all the ditritus. I also have good flow so maybe that is the solution. I am low on pods though I never see them anymore.

[DidYouSayReefer]

Is there something eating all of your pods?