?'s on frag profit

[barnett8]

How many T8's would be needed for the demensions of the tank I have given to grow sps corals, and are you sure the corals won't turn brown from this approacch?

thanks

[hatfielj]

Do you even have a display tank? I really don't understand the point in having a frag tank and trying to make money off selling corals if you don't have a nice display tank to enjoy them a little. Honestly, I think it would be next to impossible to make any sort of profit doing this on such a small scale. All the reasons above (electricity, salt, chemicals, equipment, not to mention all the time you'll be spending doing it) are fairly accurate why it would be hard if not impossible to do for profit. But, again I ask, what's the point if you're not getting to enjoy the corals and fish with a display tank? If you want to make money from growing and selling things, I'm sure you could come up with a much more profitable crop than corals.
I have a small frag tank plumbed into my main display tank and it cost me very little to set up (just needed the lights, the tank and a small pump). However, even with doing it this cheap I can assure you I have come no where near recovering the cost of the whole system and the amount of electricity, water, and salt I use. Besides, everytime I sell something i end up using the money to go my something new for my display tank. So, don't get your hopes up with thinking you'll be making a profit. I would highly doubt you'd have much success. Instead, take that $700 and build yourself a nice display system that you can actually enjoy. Plus, once all the corals are grown in a few years down the road, you can sell frags of them right out of the tank. You don't need to have a frag tank, its more of a luxury than anything. good luck

[aquagurl]

I see your point hatfielj however there are some people out there who get more or equal enjoyment from a prop tank than a display tank. They may not be the majority but they exist.

[siv]

Agreed. The pleasure of someone buying a captive frag rather than a wild coral is reward enough.

[eshook]

I agree. If I had the space I would be building such a system to help propagate captive coral. You are correct you might not make enough money to pay the rent, but if it helps purchase a few more corals or pay for an extra tank of gas and you have the time and dedication then I ask why not?

It helps the environment and puts a little money in your pocket. Its win / win to a lot of people.

[barnett8]

^
So true, I feel the same exact way.

Save the environment and what not, all the reward I need.

[badguitarist]

I'm really enjoying all the positive input people are giving barnett8. It seems that anytime someone posts this question there is a whole barrage of people giving negative feed back: "it can't be done" or "whats the point". This really discourages me as, yes, it can and has been done. Please, people lets just try to keep it positive and constructive, the negative comments are simply why many people, myself included, don't post very often. Its simply obnoxious to have a good idea and have it constantly put down and harrassed by people who may or may not know what they are talking about.
As far as a display tank goes, I personally have way more fun cutting corals up than looking at a display, in some peoples minds it is much more rewarding. I have personally torn down all my large tanks and only have a 40 gallon display but many large propagation tanks.
Barnett8 as to your question about lights and brown out. 2 40 watt flourescent bulbs would work fine in that tank, if you could raise the corals close to the light source. If the corals are resting on the bottom, however, i would up the amount of light to 4 40 watt bulbs. Brown out? well that depends on a lot more than the amount of light. first off what corals are you planning on growing. Example; most montipora keep their color better than most acropora under lower light, the same is true with many other corals. Figure out how much light you can afford and then pick a species accordingly. It will also largely (and i mean very largely) depend on the actual light bulbs chosen (aqaurium use higher color temperature bulbs versus standard plant lights). rememeber though that light isn't the only factor in browned out corals. other factors can include excess nutrients (nitrate, phosphate etc) water flow and many other factors. clean water is very important for optimal coloration in most sps corals
so keep asking questions, most of us are happy to answer them. good luck.

[bristle]

I have only one SW tank...I figure I would be better off making money on my one tank to help pay for it than having a display tank and not making anything, at least for awhile anyways.

[socalchris]

I am also interested in setting up a frag tank to sell corals...I can't imagine why someone couldn't make a couple hundred bucks? especially if selling on the forums as well...even if it's only $50...profit is profit right? that's a tank of gas right there for free...

[barnett8]

Thanks for all the input, and here is my plan:

A 48"L x 30"W x 12"H plywood tank

2 48" shop lights w/ 2 actinic and 2 10000k (I figured that it was worth the expense)

I would grow Tyree LE Purple Monster acropora (worth the initial expense in my view)

I already have a 1 1/2" bluckhead fitting, and would have an 11" standpipe.

I would have a sump roughly the same demensions w/ homemade LR and cheato

(need a good low cost protein skimmer, any ideas?)

And an airlift (I already have a large air pump) pump to complete the cycle.

[badguitarist]

sounds good, if your handy how about making a skimmer, there are plans all over the internet. good choice on the lighting that should get good color. The purple monster is a cool coral, although there are others that would grow faster for more profit but at the same time you gotta be having fun doing it so good luck.

[tekknoschtev]

I have to agree with the general sentiment here and echo that it can be done, but you really have to want to get it done, and also recognize that, especially on a smaller scale, you'll not be making much extra money. Alas, profit is profit - or that's what my business planning professor would have me believe.

I tried this venture when I moved off campus. I had two 30 gallon breeder tanks draining into a common 60 gallon sump. One lit with 4x ODNO bulbs pushing ~55-56W each, and the other lit with a 250W halide (I bought both lighting setups for $75 from a guy on a local forum). My total cost, including the lights, tanks, stand, salt, and miscellaneous crap necessary to start it up was less than $300 because I did most of it myself, and bought most of the stuff used over the course of a couple months. Sadly, I didn't have the time to dedicate to the endeavor in order to make it worthwhile (having a part time job to pay for my car and college expenses, plus being a full time student pushing 18-20 credits a semester at that point left me with very little time to actually do much "hobby" wise and I had other hobbies that required more attention like my iguana). My total yearly electrical costs were about $4-500 a year, give or take (I forget what I used for a return pump and for powerheads, but that was a quick estimate).

The long and short of it is - if you have the time and patience and the ability to maintain it appropriately it can be profitable. As others have said, pick a species and target the system to that (it seems you have). That'll assure your corals aren't competing with one another, expending resources that could otherwise be used for growing! It'll also assure you have the ability to provide the optimal conditions for the coral you are growing, instead of sacrificing some optimal conditions to suit multiple corals.

Good luck!

[samtheman]

Originally posted by badguitarist
I'm really enjoying all the positive input people are giving barnett8. It seems that anytime someone posts this question there is a whole barrage of people giving negative feed back: "it can't be done" or "whats the point". This really discourages me as, yes, it can and has been done. Please, people lets just try to keep it positive and constructive, the negative comments are simply why many people, myself included, don't post very often. Its simply obnoxious to have a good idea and have it constantly put down and harrassed by people who may or may not know what they are talking about.
As far as a display tank goes, I personally have way more fun cutting corals up than looking at a display, in some peoples minds it is much more rewarding. I have personally torn down all my large tanks and only have a 40 gallon display but many large propagation tanks.
Barnett8 as to your question about lights and brown out. 2 40 watt flourescent bulbs would work fine in that tank, if you could raise the corals close to the light source. If the corals are resting on the bottom, however, i would up the amount of light to 4 40 watt bulbs. Brown out? well that depends on a lot more than the amount of light. first off what corals are you planning on growing. Example; most montipora keep their color better than most acropora under lower light, the same is true with many other corals. Figure out how much light you can afford and then pick a species accordingly. It will also largely (and i mean very largely) depend on the actual light bulbs chosen (aqaurium use higher color temperature bulbs versus standard plant lights). rememeber though that light isn't the only factor in browned out corals. other factors can include excess nutrients (nitrate, phosphate etc) water flow and many other factors. clean water is very important for optimal coloration in most sps corals
so keep asking questions, most of us are happy to answer them. good luck.

If its easily done, where are the success storys?

[airinhere]

Oh its easy enough. Most people just arent willing to wait several years to get a decent amount of corals before they start selling. Many people move homes every couple of years. Unless you just got a house and plan on being there for the next ten years, most people do not have a stable enough living situation to attempt serious coral farming.

Of course you could always rent a seperate location and farm them there, but that is not a simple alternative and has a huge up front cost to establish.

Many reefkeepers are going to have excess amounts of coral growing in their display tanks after a years worth of time anyways. If you just want a 'frag display tank' thats fine, but it is still a display tank. Be happy with that and slowly grow out your stock.

And dont quit your day job.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

Fragging for profit at the moment may not be very lucrative, if you can even manage to make any profit at all. But, I'm pretty sure that increased restrictions on wild caught corals and further loss to coral reefs is inevitable. At some point, the price in corals will rise enough to make it fairly profitable for aquaculture, perhaps even to small home-based businesses.

[Richie_B_III]

I would definitely listen to Anthony Calfo's speech on coral farming on coral farming. long but ot tells you almost everything you would need to now financially.

[Richie_B_III]

woops here is the site. http://reefvideos.com/

[ReefTECK]

From above:

"I kept all of my costs on Quickbooks. I know what it costs, and that is why I am going with a greenhouse. Power is your primary cost, and if you can eliminate that you can make a profit."

This is mostly true, I've been evaluating a frag farm as a secondary source of income, and it would be most profitable if you can eliminate most energy costs. This means building a greenhouse in a southern climate where the cost of heating a building is less than the energy required for 12hr/day lighting via metal halides or T5 (which is probably the only thing you would really want to use).

Two really great examples of successful coral farms are that of Jurgen Wendel, and those guys at Extreme Corals, although EC does alot of importing. Jurgen Wendel was featured in Coral Magazine Oct-Nov 2007. He has about 2500 gallons of water, all T5 lighting, mostly Tunze Stream pumps, and all of his corals are grown from frags.

Marketing is really the key here, and I think if you want to actually make money back within 5 years you have to 1: Promote yourself and a website, 2: take as much free money as possible (I was just awarded $45,000 in grant money for my aquaculture project) 3: Run numbers, know the market, and look at the demographics in your area. This hobby requires a market with alot of disposable income. Don't try to run a coral farm in Michigan, Iowa, Missouri, etc.

Furthermore, aquacultured and captive raised corals make up less than 2% of the total amount of corals offered in the United States as of 1996. At that point, the United States represented more than 80% of live coral exports, accounting for some 3000 tons, or at least 350,000 individual pieces. Since then the export and growth has continued to boom by 20-30% per year. (all data per MAC). Those of us contributing to the captive harvest of live coral specimens are truly laying the groundwork for this hobby's survival.

I've been working on a business plan for four years, and things are finally coming together. Hope this clears some things up.

-andy

[bristle]

I'm surprised that no one has said anything, but your 2 shoplights for growing acropora are woefully inadequate. Probably ok for some soft coral, but don't expect huge growth rates and colour.

Try T5HO with individual reflectors or metal halide.

[bristle]

I was also thinking that most people downplay the profit made on their corals. If you look into the livestock classifieds, you'll see SPS packs with maybe 8 1" and 2" frags going for $150 or so. And they have three of these packs. That's $450 for a few pieces of coral. And their colonies are rather large, producing probably many frags/year over their lifetime. Sell a couple of those packs, and the colony, hydro and other items are paid off.

If you can find large colonies of desireable coral, the growth is exponential. You'll get a 10 polyp frag out of a large colony much quicker than trying to grow 1 polyp out into 20, then fragging it in half.

Get your colonies stabilized and producing, and trim off the extras. Leave room for growth on the colonies. Too often the polyps are so packed together they have nowhere to split.

[otto486]

Barnet, I'm facing similar problems as you. I will be moving to Florida for college in less than 2 years, and I've thought alot about doing prop and breeding tanks. The problem is, what happens to your tank when you move? Most 48" tanks won't fit too well in a dorm room, unless its got an integrated bunk bed, mini fridge, and desk. If you do decide to build a prop system, consider it's portability. Using lots of unions in your plumbing and making sure things can be dissasembled is extremely important. In a dorm you have minimal space, so even going as far as to integrate an RO holding tank and extra storage into the stand is never a bad idea. You can call ahead to your college and ask them the dimensions of thier smallest dorm rooms, just so you are prepared. And don't forget that you have a room mate, so be prepared to wake up and see him akwardly balanced over the tank vomitting wildly in the middle of the night. To me, building a frag tank with only 3-4 years to hope it pays for itself seems risky. I don't doubt that it would be a great and fun expierience, but be ready for plenty of hurdles (money is a high schoolers hardest hurdle).

[Richie_B_III]

I have always wanted to set up either a prop tank or a breeding setup but being a sophomore in high school with only a seasonal job and a project car to invest in. I just don't have the money.

[burks]

For me fragging isn't going to pay off any time soon. Really I use it as a way to buy more corals.

Say I pay $100 for an Acan Lord piece. 6 months down the road I can frag $75 worth off of that. In that amount of time I probably spent that much just creating the frag in water, supplements, etc. So I just use the $75 to buy another coral.

Can it be done? 100% YES! Is it hard? YES!

Hell I'm having a 120g plywood tank built for me to do the exact thing. Cost will be roughly $300 total for everything. I might make it all back in a year, I might not. Sure will be damn fun trying though.

[HBtank]

I am about to start a small frag tank and think it will more than pay for itself. It would be decades before paying of the "investment" I have made being a reefer, if I was lucky, but that is not the idea for me. It would be for fun and helping out the hobby by aquaculturing, maybe even going into the black at some point in monthly reefing costs ..

I have selected a few range of species to focus on. Specifically LE acros, monties and zoas/pay's.

For me the monties and palys seem to be the real area I would frag and grow in the frag tank itself, without really taking from mother colonies. The fast growing and hardy nature of these IME are why I was drawn to them for propagating. I remember thinking, well if those plain green zoas or orange cap can grow that fast, why can't the most expensive ones I can find. Well they do .

The acros will really be farmed from the display tank as needed, but their high cost makes the wait worth it, and it will be needed pruning and I seem to be filling every space I can lol.

I think it really somes down to getting high end corals though.. Selling a LE acro, monti cap, or rare Paly like a PPE is much different then just more standard. You can use them to make the core of a frag pack and sell some of the other corals with them too...

I am all about going small, I hate electricity costs and like simplicity. I am thinking of just 3X2X1 with low wattage everything.

[CUNAReefer]

Hello All,

Just started posting on RC.

One of the key factors in "growing" coral that I have not seen mentioned yet, is the experience you need to keep a thriving frag set up. Other than the obvious factors (light, water quality, money, etc.) it takes to set up a profitable frag tank, it also takes a little talent.

Also, please scrap the idea on the shop lights. Search your local sellers board for some decent MH/T5 lighting set-ups. Its great to see such an ambitious 14 year old trying to sell some coral, but you may not be ready until you have learned some of the hard lessons that all of us have learned over the years of making stupid mistakes.

Try setting up a display tank and enjoy the hobby first, then take on the challenge of fragging.

Happy Holidays,
James