Who was in the wrong?

[mhummel]

I'm still pretty new to this hobby but learning more everyday. I have a fowlr set up for a year now, and visiting sites like this for a year before even beginning this hobby. Last weekend i was at the lfs checking out, a family of four were in front of us. They had a large container of salt, 4 lr's and about 6 bags of fish. All I could think of was if this guy is setting up a new tank he has done no research and if he does have a tank set up

[Smoke in the water]

Economy is secondary in this matter. What matters is that this Goni would for sure die. The problem is not that incident in the shop. The problem is the hobby. We have a hobby that kills what we treasure the most - the life in the reefs all around the globe. Just because we want a small part of it in our homes. I retired from this hobby a year ago and I'm glad I did. I came to realize how much fish and other living creatures had to die just because of my hobby.
So, don't worry about the couple and their 70 bucks! Open your eyes and start worrying about the life on the reefs that has to be killed for your plaesure. A lying employee? Now, who's lying? Yeah, the employee is lying, but that's not the only one. Many reefers are lying to themselves and others about this problem. But very few dare putting an end to it. I'm very glad I dared. The reefs are out there. Learn to dive if you want to see it.
It's is a fantastic world, definitely. But it is not meant for your livingroom. Come to your senses and get honest about this!

[bswedenburg]

Honesty in business is required by law. report his business to the BBB. (Better Business Bureau). tell them exactly what happened.
Ignorance is pitiful, but understandable, dishonesty is not. they are wrong....

ps: their reaction tells you they know this too....

[monkeyreefer]

you were 100% correct, but i have learned to keep my mouth shut at lfs's. i will just invite people to join our forums and to do some of there own research before impuls buying

[dafraguy]

i dont feel that you did anything wrong i am personaly sick of lfs owners and their employees giving bad advise as well as faulty info after hearing one such person tell a new customer that the only lighting he would ever need is one white one and one blue one and that the little starfish are reef safe i had to leave and i havent been back i will do my part by not going back to his store i have also convinced other local reefers to boycot him as well this may seem harsh but how will we be able to change this newbies thinking i mean after all the guy at the lfs said : and he has lots of fish and now you want me to spend more money... it makes me mad just wrighting about it .. what better way to vent , great thread

[JHReef]

Originally posted by Smoke in the water
Economy is secondary in this matter. What matters is that this Goni would for sure die. The problem is not that incident in the shop. The problem is the hobby. We have a hobby that kills what we treasure the most - the life in the reefs all around the globe. Just because we want a small part of it in our homes. I retired from this hobby a year ago and I'm glad I did. I came to realize how much fish and other living creatures had to die just because of my hobby.
So, don't worry about the couple and their 70 bucks! Open your eyes and start worrying about the life on the reefs that has to be killed for your plaesure. A lying employee? Now, who's lying? Yeah, the employee is lying, but that's not the only one. Many reefers are lying to themselves and others about this problem. But very few dare putting an end to it. I'm very glad I dared. The reefs are out there. Learn to dive if you want to see it.
It's is a fantastic world, definitely. But it is not meant for your livingroom. Come to your senses and get honest about this!

Why are you posting here then? You should be on a long plane ride to the tropics. Just because you couldn't master the finer points of the hobby and gave up, does not mean we should all follow your lead. I agree that it's a good idea that YOU quit, especially if you kept killing stuff. Perhaps you left the hobby before learning about captive propogation, fragging corals, aquacultured clams, protected reefs, etc. I dive as well, and I know much more about the reef inhabitants I am observing in their natural environments, because of this hobby. I think you are barking up the wrong tree accusing the users of this forum of not caring for reefs. You will find that most here are concerned with proper care and responsible reef keeping. Go join an activist organization if you feel so strongly and don't waste your time and ours logging onto a discussion board just to convince us that we are wrong.

[Smoke in the water]

You're totally right - it was bad judgement of me generalizing and saying all reefers do bad. Of course not. I apoligize. I totally ignored the fact that captive propogation, fragging corals, and aquacultured clams are common in the US.
However, there are a lot of fish and corals that are getting killed because of the hobby as well as there are other reasons to their deaths. I just reacted to these guys that made a big deal about 70 bucks but not much of the goni. Some people seems to think there are huge quantities of fish and corals on the reefs. Well, there is not. There is a lot of guys calling themselves reefers just because they have a saltwateraquarium with corals. Guys that might try hard but don't succeed. Guys that rather spend their bucks on a new fancy coral instead of a good book on the subject or that piece of equipment they really need. Then there are those guys who spend and spend lots of bucks on everything but don't make it in the long run anyway. I consider myself being one of the latter. Everything goes well for a year or two and then starts to decline.
So, even if you don't belong to this group of reefers, and even if there are a lot of responsible reefers out there, there are a lot of people that fails and fails and fails. And every time they buy new livestock. Then there is the fact that before one fish or coral is showing up in the retailers tank there are a number of casualties on the road. That can't be any news. When the debate then is about this couples 70 bucks...I think they misses the point.
Finally, I really do apoligize for making general statements about reefers. That was not ok. Sorry.

[JHReef]

I apologize too. I kind of get fired up when I see statements like that. And I think we all know or have known someone who has no business having goldfish, much less a reef tank, but they keep trying to get it right anyway. I totally agree that far too few people go and read books or do much more research than what the guy at some fish store says. That's why most of us with some level of experience refer new hobbiests to sites such as this one, or local clubs in order to share ideas and methods that have the animals best interests in mind.

Anyway, sorry for jumping down your throat Smoke...I know your heart's in the right place.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Smoke in the Water, I think you made some excellent points. I think the hobby itself can be done responsibly ... captive propogation, coral fragging, aquaculturing, etc, still have a lot of potential ... but I find your overall point pretty hard to refute.

[mmd]

shappy
if the lfs wants you to refrain from discouraging customers, perhaps they should refrain from lying.
i agree w/you

[alcmaeon]

Having worked in what I consider a great LFS back in college, I think you did the right thing. There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything, selling a bunch of stuff that is going to die might result in a fast buck but giving great advice and not being pushy will keep customers coming back time and again.
Today, when I find a new LFS I wander through, see if they have tanks filled with "gonna die" fish like idols, ribbon eels or "gonna get huge" fish like bumble bee groupers or nurse sharks, and eavesdrop on the employee/customer chatter and decided if I'm going to do biz there or not. I would have spoken up too, and even if I weren’t a pal with the owner I'd be done with that store. And hey, I know I'm going to sound like your momma, but if that guy used your telling the truth and costing him a sale as a reason to dump what you describe as a profitable biz relationship (steady customer) and a social friendship, than he wasn't worth it in the first place. You are better off without him.

[Hawkdl2]

I’m going to take the contrarian view on this and state in the abstract that I think that while morally correct, you did the wrong thing (in other words, I’m not picking on the poster, but the he raised a very interesting dilemma).

While this may have been an “obvious� case, at what point to you draw the line? What if the customer had a few years experience and a successful 20 gallon tank, but still didn’t know what a goni was? What if he had 15 yeas experience and a 650 gallon tank, new exactly what a goni was and “wanted to give it a shot anyway�? The chances the animal would die in every case are very close to 100%. I consider the purchase of a goniopora by ANYONE an abomination. Do you only consider it so if the customer is naive? And which of the above examples would you not consider naive? And what if it was a person with some, but little, experience who you witness wanting to buy 2 tangs for his 20 gal, or his 40 gal or is 100 gallon. Or what if it’s 4 tangs, or 6 tangs, or 10 tangs? Or what if he buys a lunare wrasse and a bunch of shrimp and snails. What if he just wants to buy several SPS and a few angel fish. Death to some of these animals is almost a certainty in every case. Do you have an objective unequivocal list of criteria for when it is your duty to interfere with the legal and, unfortunately, standard business of a LFS? Where exactly do you draw the line. I cannot recall a visit to my LFS that I did not witness someone buying or clearly contemplating the purchase of an animal that either should never be sold or would not likely do well in the customers tank (bat fish, pilot fish, goni’s, many gorgonians, etc. etc.).

Further, how do you reconcile calling someone a friend who you must have known made a living selling animals that are guaranteed to die in almost anyone’s hands? Is it OK as long as you’re not in the store while it happens, or that its “only� his employees doing the hard sell? Isn’t that akin to having a drug dealer for a friend –“it’s OK, I’m sure he only sells to “knowledgeable� users� and it’s only the people working for him selling to school kids�. Do you know ANY lfs that only allows customers to purchase livestock if they can demonstrate a level of proficiency that would pass your criteria for competency or review here on RC?

I propose that the problem is not your LFS friend selling the “obviously� wrong animal to the “obviously� wrong customer. The problem is an industry that is very poorly regulated and driven largely by third world economics and interests. I find it ironic (I’m being polite) that so many of us would jump down the throat of a small business owner or employee who sells an animal that was fated to death the moment it was harvested to what we may consider a naive customer, but at the same time grab our pitchforks every time a piece of legislation comes up that would “limit our god given rights to buy and do and damn thing we want�. The hypocrisy and self-righteousness is glaring to me. If you feel so strongly about LFS selling impossible to keep animals to naive customers who prefer to learn by trial and error rather than research, why not write your congressman and support a ban on certain animals.

And how many of us can say that even with some experience we have never purchased an animal that ended up dying anyway and that in retrospect we should have been more humble about our own likelihood of success with– e.g. sponges, mandarins, pipefish, gorgonians, etc. etc. Sure some people have had “some success� ( I see posts all the time like “I’ve had tremendous success keeping one, it’s been 6 months now�). Is it justified simply because we’ve read a few books, kept and tank alive for 1 year.

Oh yeah, I would have probably said something too.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

I went to a LFS near me and two different salespeople were extremely frank about some of the more demanding species like Blue Tangs, Triggers, etc. I played dumb (which isn't much of a stretch because my knowledge level is poor) and if I inquired about a species that would grow large, they were quick to point out, "This fish will grow rapidly and needs at least 180 gallons of swimming space." Likewise, they were quick to point out fish that were not reef safe, would eat crustaceans, etc.

They've earned my respect and even though it's not a very cost competitive shop, they will get my business.

[BrianPlankis]

Mud Shrimp brings up a good point. If you find a LFS that is honest and tries to only sell items that will live in your tanks, I think it is worthwhile to buy stuff there, even if it is a little more expensive. Granted I'm not going to pay tons more, but if I can buy a test kit for 18.00 at one reputable store and 14.00 at a crappy store, I'm going to support the reputable store so they have a chance of staying in business. We had one LFS in Chicago that had high prices when starting out, but once word spread that they were responsible owners, more business went their way and their prices came down when they could order more items in bulk.

Encourage people to support responsible LFS, so that the crappy ones have a better chance of going out of business.

B.

[alcmaeon]

Right-on Garbagebrian!

[selgado]

Waiting until the employee walked away seemed a little under-handed to me. You knew the undesirable effects your comments would have before you made them thats why you waited till he walked away. If you are honest with yourself for a minute you would realize this. If you are that concerned, have the cojones to stand up in the light for what is right rather than slink in the darkness to accomplish your goals. I would respect you more and it seems less like you are going behind someone's back. You would at least give the opportunity for a meaningful discussion to evolve no matter how obviously absurd the advice seems and you would be including the salesperson in question rather than coldly excluding him. If you give someone (the sales person) no recourse they will either run and hide or come out fighting.

The owner said the goni just came in that day. Does this automatically mean the salesperson had this knowledge or didn't make an honest mistake in a large assortment of corals? A fitting statement might be: "Are you sure that one's been around that long - your boss said that one came in today." Remember opinions and advice in this hobby are abundant and very often turn out wrong for one reefer and right for another. You mentioned the matter "escalated." Was there yelling or other business disrupting behavior? Was this more the reason for the request for you not to return? If so I would agree with the move.

I would have tried to facilitate a discussion first. If that didn't work, I would try to address the owner in person (if practical). And do it in a non-accusatory manner. Say something like: "Hey Bill I'm concerned about some advice I overheard one of your sales people give out the other day. I realize the need for you, as a business, to make a profit, but I believe this advice (recap the advice) was just completely off the mark and might tarnish your image with those customers because you and I both know that coral is going to die in short order. I tried help with advice but I didn't want to interfere in the operation of your business too much." Take it from there depending on his response. If he is sympathetic (and any half way customer oriented business owner will be) you have succeeded in reinforcing in his mind that you are concerned with quality of advice over quantity of corals available. And may just set in motion some good 'ol employee retraining. Remember we as humans are resistant to change and if it is to happen at all, we can deal with slow change best - just look in the mirror. At the very least maybe when you are around (and more people like you) the staff will be reluctant to show reckless disregard for the animals they sell. If you are met with a blatent uncaring attitude you know that you shouldn't support this establishment and feel free to spread the word.

It sounds like you made a lot of assumptions that you shouldn't have. You gave yourself in a corner. And when you stand in the middle of a business and start pointing your finger and letting accusations fly, you can't expect everything to be peaches and cream. Some old sayings come to mind: "Live to fight another day," "May have lost the battle, but will not lose the war," and my favorite "Don't burn bridges." You get the idea.

As for the question were you wrong, you have to consider your results:

the goni - you were right he will live...uh die in the dealers
tank (slight chance of affecting future offerings at the LFS)
the customer - you were right to say something, just wrong
about your method
your source for livestock/drygoods - obviously you were wrong -
you lost probably a valuable source (no matter how
unscrupulous they may be)
your friend - you were wrong and lost a friend - how many of your
friends do things that you think are wrong? Do you shake your
finger at them regularly? You and I know if you did you would
not have any friends in no time. Actions speak louder than
words - be an example. If preachers took this advice...never
mind thats another thread alltogether.

Some people might say screw all that I'm going to speak my mind. Well that's fine, but you have to take the territory that goes with speaking your mind. And get used to the words "Don't come back!" Dipolmacy still works these days, but the prerequiste for diplomacy is that it is most effective as a first approach.

Hope I didn't bore anyone but this wasn't a simple question to answer.

[selgado]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention one last result: Your wife is totally PO'd. Man I feel for you. Good luck!

[scottfarcuz]

Originally posted by garagebrian
Mud Shrimp brings up a good point. If you find a LFS that is honest and tries to only sell items that will live in your tanks, I think it is worthwhile to buy stuff there, even if it is a little more expensive. Granted I'm not going to pay tons more, but if I can buy a test kit for 18.00 at one reputable store and 14.00 at a crappy store, I'm going to support the reputable store so they have a chance of staying in business. We had one LFS in Chicago that had high prices when starting out, but once word spread that they were responsible owners, more business went their way and their prices came down when they could order more items in bulk.

Encourage people to support responsible LFS, so that the crappy ones have a better chance of going out of business.

B.

I thought this post deserved repeating. This is an expensive hobby. Cutting off a good LFS to save a few bucks doesn't help at all. It does cost more to keep quality livestock and the best drygoods on the shelf.

[EBG]

I would like to express my satisfaction in seeing a healthy, considerate, and constructive discussion about our hobby. It is through converstions such as this that hobbyists examine their role as responsible animal caretakers. All too often, we become blinded by our desire to purchase rare and exotic animals and then proceed to make excusses as to how our animals will not fall victim to our inexperience. Through constant self-criticism, self-evaluation, and self- improvement I believe we all can become better hobbyists and at the same time preserve what we love so much. I applaud all of you and look forward to more debate.

[gaels]

i totally agree with what you said and did.
when i'm shopping at my lfs, i always ask questions about what i'm buying. i also ask questions that i already know the answers to, so i can judge if they're being truthful with me or not.

gael

[selgado]

With so much conflicting advice in this hobby, how exactly do you determine someone is in fact lying? Maybe they whole-heartedly believe the advice is correct.

[silkchaos]

Originally posted by selgado
With so much conflicting advice in this hobby, how exactly do you determine someone is in fact lying? Maybe they whole-heartedly believe the advice is correct.

That is a very important thing to consider. Think of the ongoing arguments that are repeated on R.C. Are DBS's a good idea? or bare bottom? Is a yellow Tang alright in a 55? Is this or that Angel reef safe? Some of the questions seem completely based on experience. (Others on the other hand are more cut and dry)

Take this employee, perhaps he has genuinly not heard of one dying. (Unlikely, but maybe he works one day a week and only has a fowlr tank himself). If he had been approached directly, perhaps the result would have been a little different.

I am REALLY new to this hobby, and learning more every day. While I agree with your standing up and saying something, I think your approach was not teh wisest course. As someone else stated, going to the customer while the employee was gone was alot like going behind his back. Also, if you had convinced the employee, one source of bad information might have changed their view point which would have helped to fix one of the problems at the store.

As for your friend, I would agree with the statement about writing a letter. The written word is always stronger, and you can edit it until it is perfect. Apologize for HOW you acted, and explain exactly WHY you did, and what your point was. (The right thing can be done the wrong way) If the employee did intentionally lie to the customer, he certainly wouldn't hesitate to sell you out. IN addition if your friend understands your view point, you may be able to help turn his business from a bad LFS to a good LFS. That would have a far better impact than a simple boycott of his products.

Just my .02 worth.

Robinson

[fishinchick]

I think you did right. Not everyone was born with the ability to be honest or have ethics.

I try to explain to people that appear to be new to the hobby that their purchase might possibly not be a good idea and attempt to guide them towards better purchase choices.

I look at it this way:
I may have lost a sale today because I told someone that they were not ready for a certain fish or coral or explain the probability that it will die; but I will have a client for life because I was honest with them. I'd rather have a client for life than make that one 15 buck sale over something that would die and make them feel like I lied to them.

One of the biggest sellers in this hobby is honesty. Unfortunately it lacks in some retail establishments right on up through ALL of the ranks (wholesalers, distributors etc.)

Unfortunately it appears your ethics got you thrown out of your LFS. Hope that wasnt the only one. Really either way if that is how they wish to portray themselves it was no loss.

Good for you!

[selgado]

I'm sorry I just don't see getting thrown out of a LFS as a solution. Especially as a first attempt to address an issue. shappy jumped to a lot of conclusions about the salesperson without giving that person a reasonable opportunity to explain himself. His actions also cast a bad image of that salesperson, the owner, and the business in general. Maybe the owner would have agreed with shappy. Maybe he would have fired the employee. Maybe this isn't the first incidence.

It sounds like when the employee called shappy a liar it really pushed his buttons. My guess is that when the salesperson walked away shappy called him a liar also which is why the salesperson returned so upset. He probably explained how the owner said they just received the goni in contrary to what the salesperson said - this should have been done with the salesperson still there, not when he walked away. Had he not allowed the employee to get under his skin, he probably would have had a lot more credibility with the owner. We will probably never know because of how poor, LFSless shappy handled the situation.

[gtrestoration]

When transshipping corals I've seen Goni's being used as substitute corals for other items ordered and not available. What should the LFS do at that point? Find another importer? If the majority of the order is intact and making money I don't see that happening. If I were in the LFS's position the customer would know what to expect and it would be sold at cost.

If you feel so strongly about LFS selling impossible to keep animals to naive customers who prefer to learn by trial and error rather than research, why not write your congressman and support a ban on certain animals.

Larry...I don't think many of us want to see it come to that. But IMO it will come and may extend beyond what we see a needed.

BTW... I would have had to walk away... that customer WILL learn where to shop and the value of the information each store can provide. Many customers when told NOT to buy just drive down the street and purchase somewhere else. Not saying this is the case here, but I've seen it happen.

SteveU