Elegance coral over havested?

[MCsaxmaster]

While I mostly agree, banning the importation of these critters is not the key, I think. A much more practical (and sustainable) approach is appropriate quotas not only for particular countries, but for collecting sites. For some species an outright moritorium may be required, but only as a last resort. Also, a short term halt in collection (1-2 years) isn't going to make much difference for the species in question. The answer is going to be long term management including closing collection of certain species in partiuclar areas for quite a while (decades). It's all about managing the resource though. If we're smart about it there will be enough for everyone plus lots and lots of extra.

Cheers,

-Chris

[gatohoser]

Sounds great vili.

As for finding other sources, when i worked in a store you always had to worry about what people found out if you shopped at a different wholesaler. THe wholesalers will give you deals and help you out if you shop solely at them and they dont like you taking your business elswhere. THey always find out too if you do it regularly. I remember when a friend of mine got banned from shopping at certain places because he said something about a wholesalers place to another wholesaler. These people work by getting to know u and knowing how u will be as a retailer of their products and they give you discounts to make you stick by them.

We only shopped at 2 or 3 wholesalers because of this (other than online propagators like Blane Perun) so if we couldnt get something we were screwed and we didnt really care because its beyond our power.

I dont know what the situation is like down in Southern california (for those of u non-californians u probably dont realize that theres actually 2 states, norcal and socal and we dont know a darned thing about eachother haha) but up here thats how the game is played.

[gatohoser]

Ok so i pmed a moderator and hes gonna ask the staff about setting up a red list!

AWESOME!

[Anthony Calfo]

A red list is a simply horrifying idea!!!!

this is not(!) the solution. And I assure you that it is the very thing that prefaced the banning of such corals and more with present legislation of these animals abroad (globally in regions). Government and environmental watchdogs take such "insider" admissions and use it against the industry. The EU situation and Germany preceding it are prime examples.

I have a better idea... self policing. Just don't buy inappropriate animals and merchants and collectors will stop selling them. Very simple market economics. It has worked throughout the years in our marine hobby indeed. Coral polyp feeding butterflies (Spanish dancers, nudibranchs out the wazoo, etc.) were the norm in tanks from the 70s into the 80's. With education, the consumers stopped buying them, but the collectors kept sending them to the merchants... so the merchants stopped paying for the substitutions when they could not dump/sell them... and the collectors stopped collecting them by and large (very small numbers collected today compared to before).

At what point to we stop making apologies for ignorant consumers? Responsible merchants and responsible aquarists will drive this machine. Or... we will deservedly legislate ourselves right out of the privilege to keep these creatures. A list or law would be a Pandoras box - I promise you. If we open this door, we will never close it again.

We simply need to be sensible and educated in our consumer choices. They do it now in Europe... not by choice, and at great expense (higher cost of livestock, limited availability of species, etc.)

(my apologies too for the untimely exit from this interesting thread too... but I really do need to get packing/preparing for a long trip - will return Dec 12th. Will look forward to reading/following up)

kind regards to all,

Anthony

[gatohoser]

Wow im excited to see such a big name writing to us on here!

As for the red list, im not sure we are talking about the same thing. I simply mean a list of corals that we post on reefcentral and corals that should not be kept for whatever reason so that uneducated people (like me who dont really know even where to look to find a list of corals i shouldnt buy) dont buy them.

As for a ban, i definitely see your point! What about people like you who want to learn about the species and help out with understanding and growing them. Maybe stricter Cites? More of them? And closing the loopholes in the system if there are any?

Something needs to be done quickly from what i hear, and considering that many corals that shouldnt be kept very easily can be (such as blastos) and are beautiful to some keepers, i wonder if we have time to keep raping reefs and making our mistakes and just hoping to learn by the loss.

What do you guys think?

[Anthony Calfo]

understood my friends ...

... but an actual list anywhere (RC or carried on to legislation) is so subjective from the start as to be of dubious use, among other concerns/problems (not to mention RCs high(est) profile in the global community which would lend the list to be sniffed out by unfriendly powers fast... Information Age, baby!).

So many marine fishes and corals are deemed "difficult to keep" or have poor survivability upon import, yet its not the species that are inherently ill-suited for captive study... but in many cases, the way they are handled.

Examples:
Xenia in the 1980s compared to Xenia imports today. 20 years ago, it was thought to be an impossible coral to even obtain with near 100% mortalities on import... now, most of us regard it as a weed (well... I don't, but some do ). The issues where almost wholly handling problems (touching tissue before bagging, not suspending the animals on styro rafts on import, etc.). Had that coral been on any kind of red list back in the early days, many skilled aquarists would have been stalled for who knows how many more years(!) from actually taking a considerate look at the challenges and wanting to solve them.

Anthias have a poor rate of survival in aquaria and most are generally regarded as delicate or short lived in captivity. Indeed, this is true when the majority of home aquariums are under 200 galls (see RC poll as one perspective reflecting this... PIJAC information for much broader perspective). And most will dwindle and fade when kept in smaller aquaria with overstocking and/or inappropriately aggressive community fishes (Zebrasoma tangs, active wrasses, damsels and clowns that at least outcompete the Anthiines for food, if not actually harass them). But... if you keep these fishes in proper ratios/harems in large private aquaria (over 200 galls), more than a few Anthiines are remarkably hardy and long lived.

Should we discourage the dedicated aquarists that do have tanks over 200 galls from keeping such fishes because the first thing the see/read is that they are a red listed animal?

We could go on with many such analogies. The bottom line to all is understanding/information and being an educated consumer.

I just don't think need a list of "bad species" as that means of information... we simply need to continue our threads, club meetings, and all forms of evolving (underscore that word... "evolving") information exchange on "better husbandry."

A list is too subjective. Who gets to make the list? An intelligent consensus of the current thinkers? And if we are willing to accept the consensus of good or bad species, why can't we just gather that consensus on suitability with husbandry information as we investigate (as educated consumers) the purchases we are about to make?

Or does it really come down to: "just tell me what to buy!" ?

Yikes! If that's true, its - at best - a snapshot in time.

If we had let our hobby evolve this way to date, we would never have seen the commercial breakthrough for keeping the freshwater angelfish, which a little over 50 years ago was thought to be impossible to keep alive. There are numerous other examples over far shorter spans of time going from impossible to keep to feeder animal in mere years.

I am... passionate about this issue.

The aquarium hobby impact is but a drop of water in the sea, by and large for species of use. I can assure you of this. How many of us complaining about raping the reefs have actually been to these reefs. More importantly, how many of the researchers that have to beg for granst to make an annual trip for survey actually visit the 1000+ islands of that given island chain? Or do they naturally survey within mere miles/days of the (populous) point in that country that they dropped into? Hmmmm ? Its a big world... big ocean... and many (most) unseen reefs out there. You just cannot boat or fly out to most of these places to dive or collect.

Hmmm... and lets say I'm completely wrong. I still have a better plan: rather than banning or discouraging the collection of certain wild species, lets work instead to become a self-sustaining hobby (like the freshwater side of our aquatic industry)! Rather than give up on species in time like freshwater angelfishes, Discus, Xenia, Anthiines, etc... make conscientious decisions to not purchase them if the consensus on husbandry is beyond your means, while better suited aquarists unlock the mysteries for us all and better (easier) days.

Then we'll have successful stories like the (Banggai) Kaudern's Cardinal entering the market from wild at $150+ each... giving us reason to fear local extinction, but then a cottage industry (and commercial to follow) reproduction of the species bringing it to mere dollars per fish (first tier) all in a span of mere years.

Rock on my salty brothers and sisters

Anthony

[cmacmike]

Wow... well spoken with valid points. You have actually changed my mind on the "red list"... Thanks Anthony!

[gatohoser]

Me too! Thanks!

[MCsaxmaster]

Anthony,

I very much agree. The first step is personal responsibility of we hobbyists. We dictate the market and it is our responsibility to regulate it by and large. If we don't (as you pointed out) eventually the government will, and that will be the end of reefkeeping as we know it now.

I am supportive of ecologically based CITES quotas though, and I think they can have a major positive impact. I don't think anyone is necessarily concerned for the species in their entirety due to collection, but we should be worried about local extinctions. It is not enough for the species to exist "somewhere", it should continue to exist throughout its range. There should not merely be pockets of the species left that have escaped perturbation do to distance from a well populated area. Again, I don't advocate bans or outright moritoriums (bad idea) but I do advocate sustainable harvest for those species that are uncommon in nature or that have been very highly collected in the past. Our tanks should be a reflection of nature, not a compilation of rare species.

Best regards,

-Chris

[sdcfish]

I learn to like this guy Anthony Calfo more and more each time I learn more about the way he thinks. Very cool head. From the beginning, he made me feel like we had been friends for many years past and I extend the same. Thanks buddie.

I have a meeting tomorrow to discuss how to market Reefcheck to the diving community and other concerned people. I know I have not given much time to discuss this before the meeting, but I promise to bring any ideas that are posted to the meeting with me tomorrow and follow up with emails with the ideas posted later.

Agenda for the meeting :

1. What type of message to divers or others that will attract attention to RC. I.E, use banner ads that link to an RC site. (name that fish, 5 things to save a coral reef, what fish needed for a healthy coral reef, etc)

2.What items will cause people to stay & investigate RC more.

Any ideas will be much appreciated.

For those who are not familiar with Reefcheck, feel free to explore the website www.reefcheck.org

In summary, RC is monitoring reefs around the world with the help of volunteers. RC also sees the benefits of working with local villagers to create "sanctuaries" on their reef's for economic benefit. It is working now in the Philipines where tour boats wait by the rows so snorkelers can swim in these zones and enjoy all the fish and corals that have come back......once a bare reef, now thrives. Great stuff.

Until then,

Eric

[sdcfish]

I am thinking to ask the moderator if we can put a Reef Check thread on this site in hopes of gaining more ideas and support that will help us grow. The meeting went really well and we dicsussed some great ideas for marketing and networking.

One idea was to add a "tag" to the Reefcheck name that would say, "Reefcheck - Saving Coral Reefs Worldwide" " Research, Education, Conservation.

We will soon be marketing for membership which has not yet been pursued heavily up til now. It would be great to include all your ideas and support in helping further develop this great org.

We are considering offering retail shops financial credit on purchases from their patrons who purchase a Reefcheck membership. So if the membership is $25.00 per year, you could purchase the membership from your lfs, and get a coupon for the same amount of discount on store purchases. We would credit the lfs for the same in part or in full leaving the member with no outlay. This idea I had also considered to promote Fish stores to become a member of Amda or other organization. Dues would be reimbursed to them by means of credit when they purchase.

Another idea is to have a photo contest where everyone can send photos to us for a calendar. The winners would have their names and photos put into a calendar that will be sold for profit and included in any membership purchase packet.

Just more thoughts. I hope this is appropriate to discuss here, but maybe a new thread should be started to discuss further?

[MCsaxmaster]

Sounds great

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers Eric... thanks for your very kind words I'm just lucky to have had good parenting and good mentors through the years, though

Its very human, although errant, for most folks to react emotionally and kneejerk especially to things/issues important to them.

In the case of blacklisting/banning the importation of corals or certain fishes... we must really consider what it is that we are trying to achieve.

I can promise (everyone) that the solution resides soundly in education and strategic consumer choices. Speaking to the latter, a majority of people in the world obey "the dollar" (money, that is... not the US dollar per se, although largely so). That's not a bad thing either. I am a dedicated and passionate capitalist. And good business can be done profitably and responsibly at the same time. In fact, it really is better business in both regards to stay true.

Happy and successful aquarists stay in the hobby longer, succeed, buy more things, tell more friends, create more aquarists, and spread the joy and education of the hobby and science of it all much further than unhappy and misled/mistreated aquarists. (it is for similar reasons that savvy merchants do not fear good competition in the marketplace but rather welcome it! Responsible competition helps to strengthen and expand the market. The opposite handicaps us. I find is sad and funny to hear some LFS shops or wholesalers complain about any/all competition as "stealing" their business. Bullpuckey! No one steals your business... you earn it, build the market together with them, or go under for not playing the game well/nicely with other savvy merchants that want the same things as you - prosperity and a bigger market for all)

getting back to our/the hobbyist perspective... there are so many issues that are much larger to consider when talking about regulating species collection/importation. And any such policy making really can't be done from or by aquarists that have not seen enough (any) of the wild reefs, the economies of the coastal peoples feeding the trade, etc. This sort of armchair policy making by simply or only looking at the results at the end of the chain (poor Catalaphyllia health in this case) is profoundly narrow vision. The reasons and solution are part of a much bigger picture.

I assure you that if large parts of the industry get shut down or heavily regulated, it will severely (as in life-threatening) hurt the economies and lives of many thousands of native people that depend critically on income from this industry for starters. Folks that could be starving or instead simply dynamiting reefs for dwindling food fishes are now protecting their habitats (farming these creatures from many levels/perspectives) and making a better living than most any other option in their local economies. Rather than making a subsistence living, many actually earn more money collecting tropical fishes and corals than their local fire and police officers!

How does this affect us, you may ask? Well... are we or are we not largely participating in this hobby out of admiration for the sea and sealife? Given to choose, wouldn't' you want to help or at least not hurt the ecosystems we keep and replicate at home? Don't we have an empathy for the creatures below the sea and the people above it working to help us study and enjoy aquatic science and the hobby?

And having said all of that, doesn't it just make more sense to train our suppliers (the whole chain from LFS to collector and all in between) with responsible buying decisions to only provide animals we know that we can keep... rather than take away the earning potential of literally tens of thousands of people (severely from collector to broker/wholesaler... and then retailers to follow shortly thereafter). Its a kneejerk reaction and wrong IMO.

My apologies for the rant. We all certainly do not need to be equally as aware of the bigger/economic issues of our hobby.

But, we can at least use good sense, right?

We simply need to police ourselves with sensible, informed buying decisions (research before you buy!).

This is not "rocket surgery"

do we really need lists and more regulations in any part of our modern lives?!?

brand new aquarists keeping guppies or goldfish in $8 plastic bowls need lists and guidance.

But marine aquarists that spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars on reef displays need to demonstrate responsibility(!) on par with the high level of commitment they have made: monetarily and with regard for the numerous living creatures taken into their charge.

kindly,

Anthony

[gatohoser]

Anthony,
I think we all agree with you after your first post. I still think you must have misunderstood what we meant by a red list. We actually were referring to what you recommend which is a list of species that we aquarists attempt not to buy because of certain issues with it such as conservation. Then you told us that this could attract authority attention so we agreed with you again. Im not quite sure just what your referring to at the moment. Could you explain? Oh and as for "armchair policy making" we were thinking of looking to people who are in the field to tell us what they think should be on there.

On a side note: i just had a family member order me your propagation book for christmas whens volume 2 gonna come out?

[Anthony Calfo]

understood my friend... I just started with a thank you to Eric and then continued my rant Rather taking the opportunity to (try to at least) wax philosophically about the bigger issue at large.

Really... I'm just long winded

As for volume 2 of BOCP1... I promise (!) it will follow vol 2 of NMA that we are finishing right now. Both will be ready next year. (crossing my fingers )

Anth-