Elegance coral over havested?

[sdcfish]

Chris raises some very valid points about how the industry's role effects the conditions on the reefs. In reading his post, I would like everyone to be very aware how I feel this issue has been addressed from within and is ongoing resolving itself now and in the near future.

Over the past few years, as many know, cites quotas have greatly been reduced in Indonesia and is limited in other cites countries as well.

I have been doing the purchasing for Jakarta for a decade now or longer and the quantities of the mentioned species have been reduced so greatly, that I fear people will mistake limitation for extinction. Blastomousa is so limited that we are lucky to have three pieces included in a 1000 pc cites shipment which is mainly made up of assorted types of soft corals, polyps and mushroom (discosoma sp and others) colonies. The other species as well; cynarina, cataphyllia, etc... have also been greatly reduced and are the minority of any cites permit. Euphyllia's are also very limited.....I guess you could safely say that most of the hard corals are not what they used to be as far as quantities available are concerned.

Another way which we have been able to limit the amounts of corals coming off the reef is by not ordering them although they are plentiful on the cites permits. This is a key issue and will play a major role in future cites quotas. The reason why is that species whose quotas are not fully used, may and will not be re-issued on future cites quotas. Tongue coral anyone? Fungia, lobophyllia, favites, pavona, merulina, and many others....how many do you really need to satisfy the market which is much more advanced and looking for much more desirable species. Yes, suppliers remain to be slightly "miffed" when we do not order certain species to their fullest cites limit's, but we are happy to let those less desirable corals remain on the reef regardless of the consequences that these corals may be reduced in quotas as well.

We all must understand that it will take a while for the collectors to fully understand the shift of demand and adjust for the changes within the industry, but it is inevitable that they will catch on. The suppliers will stop buying, when they can't resale them, and down the line the news will travel.

I think this topic kinda went off on a tangent originally speaking of elegance, but hey, I can go with the flowwwwwwwww.

Best regards,

Eric

[Vili_Shark]

MCsammaster,
Since ya mentioned Blasstos, so in Indonesia, it's becoming really hard to get them.

I thought like you once regarding the impact of the industry to the coral reef.

But no more, especially after I see so many Indonesia shipments last 18 months with so few of the corals we used to see.

After talking with many Indonesian people they say themselves that it's not the same anymore, they are going to the collecting sites, and the corals they want are just not there, so they have to order them from far away.

I spoke with Walt and he says the impact of the industry is minor, few weeks later I see few tons of dry base rocks (not Walt's though, but Fiji), with hundreds of small corals inside, Fungias, Acros, Stylos, etc. all an inch to two inch.
Those corals were alive few weeks back, you can tell by the skeleton.

[frink]

I spoke with a wholesaler in the U.S. who was a representative for a family run business in Jakarta many years ago. At that time the preferred storage method for collectors was to pack them in mud and wrap in banana leaves. At this time very few elegance pieces had problems and they were thought of as a good beginner coral.

[sdcfish]

Vili,

If you read my post, you will better understand that many of the corals we once saw regularly, you will not see anymore simply due to limitations on the cites permits. Blasto's, you mention, only have two or three pcs permitted on a 65 box shipment. Try and share those two pieces between a few hundred customers and you can now conclude that the coral blastomousa is now rare.

I am interested to know more about the latter comment regarding Fiji Base rock? I have heard rumors that tons of that stuff has been coming in from Fiji and sold as regular premium rock after a few weeks shipped in refrigerated sea containers.

What did the rock look like? Where did you see it?

I am wondering why importers would want to sell base rock when colored live rock is the most desirable. Is there really a big demand for this?

Eric

[Vili_Shark]

Hi,
I saw few tons of base rock at a wholesellers place .
Origin was Fiji.
The rocks were dry.
Inside the rocks were ALOT of small dried corals , we're talking about 1 to 2 inch pieces.
If this is not waste so I dont know what is.

You say you cant get Blasstos on the Cites, I say that they're not so often on the reef anymore, we mean to say the same: some species are vanishing in some areas, due to the aquarium trade.

[sdcfish]

Vila,

What I meant, was that cites limits how many blasto's we can get on each shipment. If there is only 2 pcs alloted for blasto. on the cites, we only get 2 pcs in the shipment.

I will admit that the quantities I see on many stocklists don't show hundred's in stock, but they are definately there on the lists...just can't get them.

I would not say that comparing how many there are now on stocklists vs. how many were there before, because I can't remember ever seeing hundreds of blasto's at one time.

I do believe that this specie is not very fast growing and fairly moderately dispersed on the reef. I think that in this case, cites is working well to control the over distribution of this specie.

Best regards,

Eric

[gatohoser]

If they are becoming rare then i would think not...Am i wrong?

[sdcfish]

My point is that cites only permits a few pieces to be imported every week. I am not saying that they are rare, just hard to get due to the restrictions on cites.

I suppose the two are the same....hard to get for whatever reason makes them rare. Just wanted to make sure people understand why they are rare.

Maybe a thread should be started to discuss cites and how it works.

[gatohoser]

Hmm i see your point. Im not sure what i was thinking when i read that the first time. I think i misunderstood how cites work but i get it now. Thanks.

[MCsaxmaster]

Sdcfish,

You're absolutly right that rare in captivity does not necessarily mean rare in nature and that CITES quotas do not necessarily reflect wild populations (though they are usually very good as resource management goes). There are some species/genera, especially those mentioned, that have indeed been overharvested to a staggaring degree. You mention Blastomussa. Blastomussa is a rare coral in nature. They were collected far faster than they could possibly recruit and the CITES quotas reflect the overcollection that has occured until recent times. These are not so common due to the CITES quotas, but at least in this case they are giving an accurate depiction of the state of that genus in nature. While we cannot assume that rarity in captivity indicates rarity or overcollection in nature we cannot assume abundance in captivity indicates abundance in nature either. Catalaphyllia is a good example of why this is not an accurate correlation. Truly, the only data that is worthwhile is the data compiled by cataloging collection areas and comparing those numbers to other reefs. These are the numbers that most CITES quotas are based on. Indeed, the reef hobby can be a great boon to reef conservation. Reef hobbyists must be willing to make reef-friendly decisions (including refusing to buy overcollected species) if they are to keep from being hypocrits.

Cheers,

-Chris

[Vili_Shark]

MC
Agreed!

sdcfish,
you wrote:
My point is that cites only permits a few pieces to be imported every week

This is YOUR cites permit, you have many importers in the states, many importers in Europe, which are the two biggest markets in the world, each importer have a couple of pcs in his Cites.
You got many importers in other parts of the world as well.

AND you got many corals being collected WITHOUT a cites, illegally, but still we all know it happenes.


This just to bring up the point of even though a coral seems to be rare/overharvested, and that Cites is not giving a quota for this species, still the coral is being harvested hundreds pcs per week, only in Indonesia.

[sdcfish]

Mcsaxmaster wrote:

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You are hitting the nail on the head. The industry is driven ultimately by the hobbyist. We as wholesalers can stop ordering certain coral species that are not wanted, but if the retailers continue to order, we will continue to supply. It's already happening with many species in my experiences over the last few years.


Vila states that we are getting MANY illegal corals without cites, but that is an exaggeration. FEW would be a more appropriate term, and even that is incidental and only happens on occassion.

Let's get back on the elegance topic. Anyone else had good luck recently?

Best regards,

Eric

[gatohoser]

Sdcfish,
I dont like the sound of what you just said. Basically what your telling us is that because ppl will allow you to continue the exploitation you're going to do it. You dont want some1 else getting your business for a few species of coral so you can make a few more bucks?

It has to start somewhere and its a heck of a lot easier for you to stop carrying those corals then for us hobbyists to spread the word to every other hobbyist to stop doing it.

[Vili_Shark]

sdcfish,

You say few would be more appropiate term.

But I'm quite sure you refer America only.

I travel quite abit and I know for a fact that there are many places that dont require Cites at all.

Many Indoensian corals that are not exported from Jakarta are exported without Cites.

Many of the neighboring country of Indonesia are getting corals without Cites.

China is harvesting TONS and I mean T-O-N-S of corals and they dont know what Cites is.

in Thiland coral harvesting is illegal, the shops are full of corals that are harvested and sold locally....Cites? what's Cites?

I guess this is abit more than a few...

[sdcfish]

Gatohoser,

Please don't misunderstand me. I meant that we alreay have stopped ordering many types of corals and fish because they just don't sell even though they are easy to get and are pleny out there for importation. CITES takes care of regulating some stuff, and we can make the choice to regulate the rest.

I am not sure what ppl means, but I hope my comments are not taken the wrong way.

Best regards,

Eric

[MCsaxmaster]

Sdcfish,

Your comments are appreciated. I would hope that folks would not take what you've said as an incentive to blame you or point the finger. Indeed, folks in this country and in Europe are quick to point the finger and blame others for the world's environmental problems. The reality is that we consumers are the ones ultimately responsible for the fate of reefs along with policy-makers and scientists. It is the responsibility of scientists to recognize problems, but not to correct them. It is the responsibility of consumers to educate themselves so that they can both vote and create political pressure in an enlightened fashion. It is then the responsibility of policy-makers to take in the information they have received and enact prudent laws for our common good.

Folks blame the coral collectors. Most of these folks are beyond impoverished and are trying to earn enough to feed their children. We, who enjoy the highest standard of living in the world, have no right to condemn these folks for trying to survive. If we were more generous with our resources perhaps they would not have to live off reef degradation. From here folks blame the governments. Many foreign governments (e.g. Kenya, Tanzania, etc.) actually have far stricter and far more generous environmental protection protocals than this country. For those that don't--well, they are trying to maintain an impoverished, starving populace. Humanitarian relief must come before environmental protection in this case, even if it is unsustainable. Again, if we were more generous with our resources these governments would not have to make tough decisions between the survival of their people and the survival of their reefs/forests/mangroves/etc. Then, folks move to the importers and retailers that sell corals. I don think that many of these folks share some responsibility, but only a minor portion. If a retail store owner is drawing an annual salary (after expenses) of $50,000 on which to care for their family when they sell a lot of Goniopora, Catalaphyllia, Scolymia, Moorish Idols, etc. but is only drawing a salary of $20,000 a year when they stick to captively propogated specimens the choice is easy. These folks have a responsibility first to their families, though they are not completely without fault.

The ultimate responsibility for whether coral reefs, tropical forests, and other threatened ecosystems are going to survive through the next century is almost entirely with the consumers of the United States and Europe. We have nearly all of the worlds money, power, and resources and the decisions we make are going to directly affect what the world is like in a century. Frankly, if coral reefs go through a good portion of destruction in the next century (which unfortunately is likely) it is absolutely my fault, your fault, and the fault of every person on this board, not the fault of those folks that do not have the resources to make other decisions.

Cheers,

-Chris

[sdcfish]

Well said Chris,

I appreciate your comments and the quality in which you state them.

I am in total agreement with you that it is our responsibility to get involved in some way.

Allow me to plug Reefcheck.org, which we have been directly involved with for a few years now. We try to link them to our website and also distribute information at Trade Shows that we attend.

I believe that industry has been improving over the last 15 years beginning with the Haribon efforts (not sure if they were exactly first) and others to improve on the well known problems.

Training, monitoring, studying, as well as other factors will lead this industry into sustainability for future gerations to enjoy.

Regards,

Eric

[MCsaxmaster]

Eric,

I couldn't agree more.

Take care,

-Chris

[gatohoser]

Well that is not exactly a feasible method and does not work thru history.

True Eric is a very small portion of the suppliers in the world but that doesnt mean it is justified to continue selling even in the small amounts hes limited to. Wholesalers are not poor folks. They make a ton of money according to the ones i met in the bay area. Some of them drive around in the fanciest cars ive ever seen and still have money to upgrade their facilities and sell more and more and this is after having come from third-world countries with little more than hopes of working in a LFS.

To put the decision entirely into the hands of the dumb mass is too hopeful and not practical enuf. For every 1 person that has read this thread and knows about the corals that we shouldnt buy for ecological reasons there are 1000 ppl who have no clue and there is no way for us consumers to fulfill the responsibility of having to tell them it all.

But there are some people with great power over the markets. These people are called collectors and wholesalers. Some of the collectors are being helped greatly by americans to collect ecologically while actually rebuilding wild reefs. This is something i have been thinking about taking on myself but it is too risky and is a long way out there for me to consider doing just yet. I say that because i dont want you to think im just preaching. The other collectors need a hand from people. It isnt any one person's moral obligation to do this but hopefully over time we will trickle over there to help them out of our own goodness (again not trying to convince any specific people).

But there is something that can be done here and now. Wholesalers can stop selling to retailers. There are not that many wholesalers on the west coast. Sure a heck of a lot less than retailers. If one stops doing it that does make a difference in the market. He can advertise as being reef-friendly and environmentally minded and it attracts the more stable retailers. Even if it doesnt its a small wad of cash for wholesalers.

I am not assuming that Eric is a rich wholesaler but it has to start somewhere and you cant put it in my hands to educate 500,000 reefers around the country. It is more my job to try and convince those in power (just like you said) to change business practices.

I hope im not coming off as a finger pointer but i think im just being a realist. Somebody somwhere with the power to make a change has to lead the way.

If i had the know-how to start a petition to ban the sale of certain species id go ahead and do it and id spend my saturdays on the streets getting signatures. If any1 out there has the desire or knowledge ill be happy to get signatures for you.

[gatohoser]

Oh and i just noticed your question. Ppl means people.

[MCsaxmaster]

Gatohoser,

In my experiences there are two general groups in the animal trade: folks that don't know about concepts regarding sustainable resource management (or don't care) and those that go out of their way to make sustainable decisions. The folks in the industry that I like are that latter. A lot of these folks (for instance, the owner at the store where I work) sacrifice huge amounts of income to do things with the environments in mind. Our store owner is there about 70 hrs. a week. He works long hours and is rewarded very meagerly, but we don't compromise our ethics. We end up doing a lot of sales, but since we invest so much into animal care (and paying higher prices for captive bred and MAC certified critters) we actually turn much smaller profits than the folks down the road. Again, this comes strictly as a loss of income to our owner.

It is the responsibility of law-makers to pass laws that will protect our common good. It is our responsibility to elect people that will make good decisions and further to put political pressure on them to make good decisions. You can blame the folks that are making money by exploiting reefs (which I don't believe Eric is) but this is not going to get anything done. If money is there to be made then there will always be someone that will be in the business. It is the responsibility of hobbyists (yourself and myself) to spread awareness through the public and in the government. This is the only way to affect change. Blaming wholesalers/retailers for being greedy and unscrupulus will not save the world's reefs--enacting legislation and finding ways to make sustainable use of this resource will.

Cheers,

Chris

[gatohoser]

You must have misread what i was writing. I dont blame him. I dislike the way he reasons his actions.

Hey if i see a politician who has on his agenda that he wants to help coral reefs by banning sale of certain species id vote for him. A proposition is the only way we could get anything done permanently.

But since you work in a store you must know that each store usually only has 2 or 3 wholesalers that they buy from to keep them from getting angry at the customer for taking business elsewhere. THere is a lot of drama involved in retail. I know. I was in it for a while.

But if one of them stops selling it makes it SO much harder for so many retailers to get those species. They are already fairly difficult and to cut off 1/2 to 1/3 of their supply is a big deal. And each retail store sells so many corals of those species over a lifetime. If one man such as Eric decides to be more ethical it trickles down and makes a big difference. Especially if he uses his ethics as a selling point which many ppl will be looking for as most owners are hobbyists.

If you spent much time on reefcentral the last year youll see me in many threads and i dont post in most threads i read. I was totally unaware of this danger to the species mentioned. I knew about anemones and certain fish species from the red sea. Maybe we can get a moderator to post a red list as a sticky on the front page of reefcentral??? Why didnt we think of that earlier...

As for blastos and elegance, they will never be able to be grown captively in my opinion because they just grow too slow to meet even the smallest demand from what ive seen. Blane perun tries to propagate blastos and he says it is very slow growing. That is part of the reason why theyre so expensive when aquacultured.

Remember im not blaming eric. Its a ***tty situation and its not very easy to solve but when one person says i wont because no1 else has yet its just not ethical. Thats like me not voting because my vote doesnt really make any difference 99.999999999999999999999999% of the time. Its still .000000000000001% there.

PM me some time saxmaster id like to hear about your schooling and plans.

[ReefGuy07]

Well, back to the subject of elegance corals every one I have ordered from SDC, eric and his gang have been nothing but the best, and they live a long and happy life weather in my tanks or a customers tank.
mike
Mike's Unlimited Marine.

[Dwayne]

[moved]

This topic is better suited for this forum.

Dwayne

[Vili_Shark]

Hi,
I like some of the ideas here.
a coral and fish red list on RC will be nice.
About Eric, or any other leading and not importing certain species of corals.
From the way I see it, it wont work.
Eric has competition, if he wont bring a certain coral species, Blassto for example, the retailer will look it up at Eric's competition.
LAX area has quite many strong importers.
If Eric will say NO, then X will say NO, and another guy will say NO, there will always be another importer who will import and sell this coral for the retailer, and in this case, even for extra bucks cause there's so many importers who "dont have it".
For these people it's business, and if you like it or not, there will always be the guy who will import whatever from wherever to make money.
The way I see it, it'll be much easier if the US Fish and Wildlife will ban the import of certain corals species that are in a red list, for let's say 1 or 2 years for recovery in the reefs, then to conrol the harvesting very strickly.