Habitattitude

[AquaTamer]

If this forum is of value---let's call it as we see it. Religion? No! Reference to the Holocaust is not a religiuos topic!
Firstly, it was a metaphot to express how Government stifles freedoms.
Second, how can I not discuss government, when the organization in question is the pawn of an government agency in the first place.
Third, I did not get personal first--I was acused of being a nut case for express my derision about the lie this organization is trying to perpetrate.
Do I not have a right to defend my position here?
I was acused of being an anti-semite. Did you castigate that member for such a statement? Or are they the one who complained.
EEEEXXXXCCCUUUSSSEEEE ME!
(I guess I better tuck my tail back into my hausen and stoppen complainin abut zee Nazis.)

[reefska]

Riiigghhttt....

My big problem with the whole nazi thing is that it is completely disproportionate to the situation...you simply CANNOT compare a governement organisation advocating being careful and cautious when getting rid of a possibly damaging animal.....and the mass extermination of a single race of people.

you are not an anti-semite, you are simply ignorant to other peoples feelings, my grandparents went through the concentration camps and know all about lies, and stifeling of freedom. The fact that you would use this as a means to show your anger towards what I would consider a relativly well balanced, and well meaning pamphlet, IS, whether you say "I don't mean to offend" or not, very offensive.

Subjects like this don't need wild and misplaced "metaphors", what they need, is for you to relax, and write a meanigful argument, against what you read.

anyway....lets take it one sentence at a time shall we::

Originally posted by AquaTamer
"Many times the source of the initial introduction of the invasive species is not known but for aquatic species the aquarium and water garden hobbies are often, and many times unfairly, blamed."

This is simply stating the fact that sometimes the aquarium hobby is blamed for introductions that are in fact caused by other events (shipping etc), it is NOT saying that the hobby is completely blameless.

"In general Habitattitude encourages you to prevent the introduction of non-native species by not disposing of unwanted aquatic species in the nearest body of water. Instead, steps one should take include contacting a retailer to see if they would take the specimen..."

This is just telling you that in order not to run the RISK of introducing an invasive species, dispose of your fish responsibly.

I cannot see the hypocracy, the lies, or how the "government stifles freedoms"

Of course you have the right to defend your position, and I welcome a well rounded discussion. Please, please, please, read through the thread, look at the arguments, and come back with a properly thought out response.

Sorry for the rant....

[AquaTamer]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
"Hydrilla was first introduced into North America in the mid to late fifties by the aquarium trade. California officials have also traced hydrilla infestations to shipments of mail order waterlilies....Since 1984, hydrilla has been the most abundant aquatic plant found in Florida public waters." http://www.wapms.org/plants/hydrilla.html

All of these are problems that have been traced back to the aquarium hobby. All of the species mentioned are freshwater invasives. They were not introduced to closed bodies of water by shipping. Why would the saltwater side of the hobby be any different? Why are most of the 16 invasive marine fish species identified in FL popular in the hobby? Does ballast water only pick pretty fish?

Do the 6 lionfish, known to have come from a private aquarium not count? What about the single strain of C. taxifolia that can be found in the US, Australia, and the Mediterranean? Not all of the place it is found are near public aquaria. That is just how they traced it back to the aquarium hobby.

"There has been no report of finding Caulerpa spp. in ballast waters, although microscopic dispersal propagules have not been monitored specifically. Species of Caulerpa reproduce microscopic swimming gametes. The gametes and their sexual union product (zygote) are negatively buoyant, as are vegetative fragments. Sexual reproduction in nature is relatively rare. These characteristics make ballast water a less likely pathway. The invasive Mediterranean strain of C. taxifolia has not been able to successfully complete sexual reproduction in the wild or in aquaria, evidence against dispersal of this species through ballast waters." https://web01.aphis.usda.gov/regpubl...M2?OpenElement

I don't think anyone is trying to deny that shipping introduces new invasive species, but to think that it is the only culprit is foolish.

Traced back to the Aquarium hobby. I did not know that a hobby was a person, place, or thing that could do some kind of action as you describe! All of the quotes to support this were mentioned in previous posts AND WERE NEVER PROVEN TO ANYKIND OF CONCLUSION. ALL COINCIDENCES.
As a matter of fact, if we are playing the probability as proof game, then I would say the facts support LARGER entities at work. NOT INDIVIDUAL HOBBYISTS!
If you were looking for the reason your pigs have lead poisoning would you suspect the chipping paint on your neighbors childs little red wagon or your own barn that has not been painted for 15 years and has chipping paint.

[AquaTamer]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by reefska
My big problem with the whole nazi thing is that it is completely disproportionate to the situation...you simply CANNOT compare a governement organisation advocating being careful and cautious when getting rid of a possibly damaging animal.....and the mass extermination of a single race of people.

you are not an anti-semite, you are simply ignorant to other peoples feelings, my grandparents went through the concentration camps and know all about lies, and stifeling of freedom. The fact that you would use this as a means to show your anger towards what I would consider a relativly well balanced, and well meaning pamphlet, IS, whether you say "I don't mean to offend" or not, very offensive.

Subjects like this don't need wild and misplaced "metaphors", what they need, is for you to relax, and write a meanigful argument, against what you read.[QUOTE]


I am not advocating a lack of proper care, BY ANYBODY! But, to insinuate that individual hobbyist are at fault in the past by an organization made up of one of many poorly managed governmrnt agencies AND the most representative of the most probable culprit associated with the hobby IS TOO MUCH.
It defeats and exposes, the very people that are in a position to apply the most constructive pressure, to public ridicule.
It is a sidestep of the issue. It is a whitewash to hide and to mask incompetances by F & G and other entities that should be more careful, but, who are not!

Regarding my previous post: Did you read my original statement. I went one better than the phrase you mention. And, do you not see aproblem using your grand parents past to bolster your position?

Ask them. How small, discrimination against Jews started in Nazi Germany. We all know now how big that got. And now, you say I should not use such a "wild" metaphor. At what point should a "wild" metaphor like this be used? When the numbers go over 12 million?

[AquaTamer]

Perhaps I have lost sight of the original thread of this forum.
I have just read everything on the habitattitude website and I do not see anything out of line (consistent with my argument). And, that made me realize my problem was only with the pamphlet put out by A P. (I don't want to draw a lawsuit).
I think this organization put a "politically correct slant" on the issue. After all, we would not want to p. o. are real customers (the LFS's) now, would we.

[nme1337]

apparently aquatamer feels that the best way to respond to solid proof from credible sources is by ending half of his sentences in exclamation points and talking about the government, urban legends, and the news. I agree with some of the things you say about our society but it has nothing to do with the fact that it has been proven by a lot of unbiased scientifically based studies and investigations that a lot of non native species were introduced via this hobby

[AquaTamer]

That is an outright lie. Show me your source! Get out of here liar.

[AquaTamer]

If you don't want to take the time to read all the posts and respond to the context of the forum---DON'T WASTE OUR TIME WITH YOUR OWN INANE BABBLE!

[reefska]

Aquatamer.....I think you are the one who ought to re-read all the posts in this thread, and re-evaluate your own views. The proof and examples have been given, and there is nothing more to say.

Lets face it tho.....nothing is ever going to convince you.

[Lordhelmet]

OK i just read through this entire post and would have to admit that yes blaming all these problems on hobbiest is a bit much, but to the point aquatamer is taking it is way to far. This started out as a discusion about envirnmental issuies not Nazi germany. I think you should stop bringing this up and just watch from the sidelines.

[ddenham]

wow...how is this thread still alive?

[moggyhill]

You are right but aquatamer keeps bringing it up when it should die

[BrianD]

Closed.