The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Insane Reefer]

Originally posted by michaelalan
Insane, it's really not that much more expensive considering a tablespoon of dry crystal will produce 3 cups of solar salt equivalent.

1tbs can produce thousands of crystals? Maybe I'm not thinking of the same product - I'm thinking of the stuff that is used in floral displays - starts out tiny, but sucks up water until it is fat and sassy. Same stuff? If it is, then there is no way a tbs will equal 3 cups of salt...

If the hardening time is extended with salt, is then also the curing time?

First, do you mean Cure or Kure?
For Kure, this is a "No" answer. For something like 15 or 20 years, salt just wasn't a feasible component of MMLR. Oh, a few folks had played around with it, but almost all reported failure. When Travis created this thread, he was the first and only reference to salt being used successfully that I could find at the time.

The kure time has not increased with the addition of salt. Travis's kure will take about as much time as the Ol' Skool recipes will. I've been making MMLR for over 8 years, all of the early batches made without salt, and my kure time hasn't increased from then to now.

If anything, salt opens up the center of the rock and allows more water to get in, and that would make me think that it would actually shorten the kure time.

[michaelalan]

I have to disagree. I used a tablespoon thinking that it wasn’t going to be enough and then I had way more than I need. Although I didn’t count them, I ended up throwing away hundreds of them.

Now that have used both and it seems to be the same to me. I have a 1 lb jar of the poly crystal stuff for $12. It didn’t break the bank. It expands 100 times or more from its original size, so that’s like a 100 lb bag of rock salt for $12. Much cheaper than 100 lbs of the solar salt. Takes up less room too.

Not disrespect to Travis, but I think it was a mater of convenience in using rock salt and not scientific research on his part, where Reefball worked with a university to develop their system. I think that carries more weight.

Second, I know that the salt delays the hardening time by 3 to 4 times. It’s a fact. That’s a 300 to 400 percent increase in the set-time. It is only logical that that it would also delay the cure time (the time is takes for the cement to stop taking on ions). If it delays the cure time then it delays the kure time, (the time it takes the cement to drop in pH).

Third, I have made several batchs of rock with solar salt and sometimes it’s crumbly and sometime it’s not, with no change in methodology.

And finally, from Mr Wilson’s Shotcrete thread, confirms that Fast Set Mortar Repair is the Ultimate cement formula. Quick set time, no pH swings, can be used within days if not weeks, and can be purchased at Home Depot.

[sunkool]

Now that have used both and it seems to be the same to me. I have a 1 lb jar of the poly crystal stuff for $12. It didn’t break the bank. It expands 100 times or more from its original size, so that’s like a 100 lb bag of rock salt for $12. Much cheaper than 100 lbs of the solar salt. Takes up less room too.

I only pay 3.99 for a 60 lb bag of salt. I think that works out to be 120lbs salt for 8.00 or 180lbs for 12.00.

Second, I know that the salt delays the hardening time by 3 to 4 times. It’s a fact.

If this were FACT then I can pull my rocks out of the mold in 6 hours and they would be as hard as the salted rocks that I pull out in 24.
I don't think so.

[michaelalan]

Originally posted by sunkool
If this were FACT then I can pull my rocks out of the mold in 6 hours and they would be as hard as the salted rocks that I pull out in 24.
I don't think so.

I'm not following you. So how long do you wait before you pull your rocks out of the mold?

[Insane Reefer]

Anyone heard of "Ciment Fondu"?
It is a calcium aluminate cement.
I found this great list
of cement terms while doing some research, and came across that but it also mentioned that powdered aluminum reacts with the cement and forms hydrogen bubbles, and increases the pores and volume of the batch...

Would this be something safe to use?

[reefrubble]

sunkool , YGAPM . Ted

[sunkool]

Originally posted by michaelalan
I'm not following you. So how long do you wait before you pull your rocks out of the mold?

You are kidding me right?
Do you know math?
I pull my salt mixed rocks out in 24 hrs. You would know that if you read the post. And followed the last 2 pages of this thread Now according to your fact, me using salt slows the hardening by 4 times. 24/4 is 6. Your fact means that if I used no salt then I could pull them out in 6 hrs.
Again I don't think so.

[sunkool]

AAC will readily float in water

Desired shapes are cut and placed into an autoclave, an enclosed pressure chamber, and it is then steam cured at about 3500 F

A little out of the diy league.
Alot of interesting reading though.

[Insane Reefer]

Set time shouldn't be confused with cure time...

[Insane Reefer]

Originally posted by sunkool
A little out of the diy league.
Alot of interesting reading though.

LOL
You are taking parts from two different terms...

1.

AAC - Autoclaved Aerated Concrete Exceptionally lightweight precast concrete product with high thermal qualities and fire resistance. Its mixture contains a combination of Portland cement, sand, lime and gypsum to which water is added to produce a slurry. Finely powdered aluminum mixed into a paste is then added prior to placement into large forms. The finely powdered aluminum reacts with the alkaline components of the cement and lime producing hydrogen gas. This gas increases the mixes volume approximately five times and produces a uniformly dispersed cellular structure throughout the mix. Desired shapes are cut and placed into an autoclave, an enclosed pressure chamber, and it is then steam cured at about 3500 F. When fully cured, its final volume consists of approximately 80% air voids and it weighs about one-fifth an equal volume of standard concrete. With a typical weight of about 30 pounds per cubic foot, AAC will readily float in water. Also commonly and incorrectly referred to as Foamed Concrete or Cellular Concrete, neither of which is necessarily autoclaved. NOTE: AAC is an excellent material for use as a base or armature for sculpting cementitious materials. It can be easily cut and shaped using ordinary hand tools such a wood saw, rasps and even woodworking chisels.

And the second:
2.

Ciment Fondu The registered tradename for the world's first commercially manufactured calcium aluminate cement, patented by J. Bied Lafarge in 1908. Dark brown or dark gray in color, this high alumina (40%) binder is resistant to both sulphate attack & high temperatures making it the product of choice for refractory and chemical environment applications. It is a very rapid setting product that reportedly achieves full strength within 24 hours. It is also widely used by artists & sculptors for a wide range of applications including casting, sculpting & mold-making.

Mixing and matching glossary terms is not an option, lol...

[sunkool]

Set time shouldn't be confused with cure time...

I'm not confusing the two. He said it not me.

Originally posted by michaelalan

Second, I know that the salt delays the hardening time by 3 to 4 times. It’s a fact. That’s a 300 to 400 percent increase in the set-time.

You are taking parts from two different terms...

I know thats why I quoted them diffrent.
We don't want floating rocks and MOST of us don't have an autoclave.

[michaelalan]

Originally posted by sunkool
You are kidding me right?
Do you know math?
I pull my salt mixed rocks out in 24 hrs. You would know that if you read the post. And followed the last 2 pages of this thread Now according to your fact, me using salt slows the hardening by 4 times. 24/4 is 6. Your fact means that if I used no salt then I could pull them out in 6 hrs.
Again I don't think so.

Even when I use your numbers it still comes out to be 3 to 4 times as long. Look at your own words.

Originally posted by sunkool
For these plugs I use 1 part sand to 3 parts portland. It seems like alot but they come out hard as a rock after 8 hours.

After 8 hours they are as hard as a rock. See, no salt in your ingredients.

But yet, in another post where you use salt you say

Originally posted by sunkool
O.K. here is the rock after a 36 hour dry and 1 hour soak.

Now 36/4 equals 9 hours set time. That's real close to eight hours.

I don't know why you felt like you were attacked when I posted that. It's not like you invented the method so there's not reason to take it personally.

In addition, how many times have you read on this thread about someone who waited 24 hours before handling their rock but it broke anyways? Tell me never.

My point is that salt is not the ideal solution, which has been expressed by many in this forum.

It works, yes, but it ain't perfect.

When I bring up an alternative it's poop-pooped before it's even tried.

[sunkool]

You are quoting me on a 1 oz frag plug vs a rock. The plug is almost pure portland. Not the same for making liverock.

The rock you are talking about was removed at 24 hours. And I posted a video. Then I took a pic at 36 hrs. and posted it.

Get your FACTS strait

I don't know why you felt like you were attacked when I posted that. It's not like you invented the method so there's not reason to take it personally.

No I didn't invent the method, and I don't take it personal. You posted what you call fact. Its not fact.

[sunkool]

All this coming from someone who posted this

Originally posted by michaelalan
I don't know why people are using Limestone and other calcium based products with the portland. From what I have learned, that just adds to the pH problem.

[ErikJL]

Sunkool your recipe and method is fantastic. I made a bunch of rocks last night and will make more tomorrow. Pics will come soon. Thanks for documenting your method, especially where you show the consistency of the wet cement/sand/salt mixture and how you formed them. I was about ready to call it quits and just buy the damn rock, not anymore!

[Insane Reefer]

Originally posted by sunkool
We don't want floating rocks and MOST of us don't have an autoclave.

Good to know.
Thanks!

[mr.wilson]

These expanding crystals you speak of sound like silica gel. If so, it is a desiccant that will draw moisture out of the concrete and introduce silicates into your water. You will have diatom issues if you use that stuff.

How do you get rid of the silica gel crystals before you put the rock in the tank?

Just to clarify for some, there are no chemical benefits to using salt to create void space. It's just a reef safe additive that dissolves readily. Sugar would work better, as it wouldn't interfere with the chemical reaction of the hydraulic curing process, but it's a little more expensive, and hard to get in large crystals (cane sugar/rock candy).

There are lots of polymer modified (quick curing) cement mixes out there that are not water-proof, and have the same pore matrix as regular portland. I have used one by Bomix that worked well. It had a longer work time (20 minutes vs. 2 minutes), so it was easier to use than the King or Quikrete brands.

You can also use calcium chloride-based additives to speed the setting time by 25%.

[michaelalan]

Originally posted by mr.wilson
These expanding crystals you speak of sound like silica gel.

Silica gel and the Polymer Cyrstals I am talking about are two different compounds.

Silica gel is Sodium silicate, Na4SiO4.
Polymer crystal is Polyacrylamide an acrylate polymer, H2CHCONH2.

The Polymer Crystal is a type of plastic.

It can be removed from the concrete with a saltwater bath outside of the tank.

If anyone tries using these before I post my results, soak the crystals in water before you add them to your concrete mix. That way they don't expand in the setting concrete and don't steal the water from the mixture.

[michaelalan]

Originally posted by sunkool
All this coming from someone who posted this

Sunkool, this is an example of a personal attack.

If you responded with, "I disagree, salt is great for the following reasons..." is not a personal attack and adds credence to your argument.

[Neptune777]

Guys...I have been following this thread for a while now. It's great to debate the pros and cons of various ingredients and techniques.....but it really takes away from the development and sharing of ideas when the conversation breaks down to this level of exchange. Let's get back on track please...

[Neptune777]

Any reason why perlite should not be used as an aggregate? It's light, porous, very cheap, and I think it is inert???

[Neptune777]

I have these crystals for the garden and plant pots. Really cool stuff! How does a saltwater bath remove them from inside the rock...does the saltwater break them down where freshwater does not?

Or does it need to be removed? They are just filled with water anyway....

Here is what I am referring to:

http://www.watercrystals.com/How_wat...stals_work.htm

Originally posted by michaelalan
Silica gel and the Polymer Cyrstals I am talking about are two different compounds.

Silica gel is Sodium silicate, Na4SiO4.
Polymer crystal is Polyacrylamide an acrylate polymer, H2CHCONH2.

The Polymer Crystal is a type of plastic.

It can be removed from the concrete with a saltwater bath outside of the tank.

If anyone tries using these before I post my results, soak the crystals in water before you add them to your concrete mix. That way they don't expand in the setting concrete and don't steal the water from the mixture.

[mr.wilson]

I've used those polymer crystals before, but I just assumed it was silica gel.

The question remains, how do you remove it, as it's a regenerable media?

[Neptune777]

Any reason why they would need to be removed from inside the rock? They can be brushed off the surface very easily I would assume...for aesthetics

[michaelalan]

Originally posted by mr.wilson
The question remains, how do you remove it, as it's a regenerable media?

Supposedly a saltwater bath will dissolve the crystals.

I will let you know how that works out on Sunday after testing it.