How hot are you! - Page 2

triggerfish1976 · #26 09/12/2007, 04:24 PM

Please not the cooment regarding the amount of temp. increase suggested. It is only 2 degrees and not the 4-6 that you suggested.

oct2274 · #27 09/12/2007, 04:24 PM

I truely don't know the effect of temperature swings, not sure anyone does, but i'm guessing if they happen very fast and constantly that would be bad in a home aquarium. In the ocean the temps definitely do swing, but it isn't drastic daily in most places unless they are very close to the shore. I like to keep my aquarium +or- 1 degree of 81, but that doesn't mean that I couldn't have better results if I varied my temps through out the year. I just keep it at 81 because most thriving reefs are in warmer waters.

tony1970 · #28 09/12/2007, 04:28 PM

Basically in all reefs temps go up and down, so shoould we make our tanks the same way? we already have the controller doing the lights based on real sunset and sun rise times and changes per day as irl. So if you really wanted to get picky about your reef tank, running your temp higher in summer and lower in winter would make sense then, as long as you stay in the range of say 77-87 degree
As long as no major change in temp over a 24 hr period, these slow up and downs over a year would be good for your tank?For most animals we inhabbit anyways

RichConley · #29 09/12/2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oct2274
I truely don't know the effect of temperature swings, not sure anyone does, but i'm guessing if they happen very fast and constantly that would be bad in a home aquarium. In the ocean the temps definitely do swing, but it isn't drastic daily in most places unless they are very close to the shore.

Most reefs ARE very close to shore. Drastic temperature swings ARE common.
\

For those of you who think that stability is a natural concept, I highly suggest you read this

http://www.reefland.com/rho/1105/reefc7.php

triggerfish1976 · #30 09/12/2007, 04:32 PM

One other noted tidbit. Comparing temp. increases in the ocean to aquarium increases is relative when it comes to time. The corals on ocean reefs have been there and have been growing for several years whereas the corals in our tanks have been growing in terms of months. A 2-3 degree temp increase over the course of a week or months in the ocean could be equivalent to a major daily temp. swing in our aquarium.

dheinze · #31 09/12/2007, 04:37 PM

My tank runs from 80-84F, although maximum daily change is about 3F (usually 2). Can't say I have amazing colors, etc., but my acros do grow and are not brown. I have always been a bit concerned about the larger daily swing, but recently I went on a trip and my airconditioner went out while I was gone. I had some friends keeping an eye on the house, but it still took about 3 days before it was fixed. Tank temperature was 90F for most of that time. I saw some tip recession on one of my acros, and my xenia started to melt, but nothing died and everything made a full recovery. That tells me that there MAY be something to Rich's idea of thermoadaptation....

9Tailfox · #32 09/12/2007, 04:43 PM

I'm sorry RichConley did I miss something or did the documentation you provided not support your point at all? I don't think anyone here is disputing the fact the temperatures fluctuate in the ocean according to season (which is all your charts state). You notice how long it took for the temps to go from 86 degrees to 77 about 7 to 8 months.

Now accounting for ocean currents I can see temp swings of about 2-4 degrees or so, but not for extended periods or days on end. It takes months for average ocean temps to rise in an area as reflected in your charts.

RichConley · #33 09/12/2007, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dheinze
That tells me that there MAY be something to Rich's idea of thermoadaptation....

Considering theres a HUGE amount of scientific literature suggesting it, and absolutely none suggesting that corals need temperature stability....

triggerfish1976 · #34 09/12/2007, 04:51 PM

I don't think we are talking about 1-2 degree stability here. I am talking about swings of 6-8 degrees in the matter of hours. As your literature states some of the swings of 2-3 degrees took place over years not days.

I doubt that a temp swing up to 90 degrees proves your theory of adaptation either. It only proves that we all get lucky sometimes.

RichConley · #35 09/12/2007, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
I don't think we are talking about 1-2 degree stability here. I am talking about swings of 6-8 degrees in the matter of hours. As your literature states some of the swings of 2-3 degrees took place over years not days.

I doubt that a temp swing up to 90 degrees proves your theory of adaptation either. It only proves that we all get lucky sometimes.

Did you even read the article I posted?

Quote:

Coral reef temperatures are variable on tidal, diurnal, weekly, monthly, seasonally, annually, and multiannular time scales and the scope of variation is quite large (Figure 3). Generally, variations of 1.5 ºC to 4.5 ºC (2.7 ºF to 8.1 ºF) are common in equatorial areas, and one-day extremes such as a tidal pool on the Great Barrier Reef of 25.3 ºC to 34.9 ºC (77.5 ºF to 94.8 ºF) are not uncommon (Wood, 1999). Long-term fluctuations in the monthly average sea surface temperature at equatorial localities often fluctuate over a 3ºC to 5 ºC (5.4ºF to 9ºF) range (See Figure 3). When the data for the monthly average fluctuates this much it should be understood that the values for the daily extreme temperatures fluctuate over a much higher range. It is worth remembering, that as far as oceanographers and climatologists are concerned, the “sea surface” implied in the measurement of Sea Surface Temperatures (SST) extends to a depth of about 50 m (165 feet) throughout most of the tropics.

You see that? 17 degree DAILY swings are not considered uncommon. 8 degrees is normal. And thats with the mean moving, IE, temp can swing from +/- 5 degrees from 78 (73-83) one day, and then 3 days later be swinging +/- 5 degrees from 83 (78-88).

9Tailfox · #36 09/12/2007, 05:05 PM

Did you also notice that in that article that those temperature readings were taking from a reef in Indonesia where the lowest point was 0.5 m. In half a meter of water any change is going to be a drastic one. Now do all the corals and fish we keep in the hobby come from reefs that are under 0.5 m in depth? Last time I checked the answer was no not all of them.

I do not disagree that life in those reefs have adapted to that and are more tolerant. But not much of the life we get for our hobby can be guaranteed to be as tolerant. I don't know about you but I would rather not play with fire.

Wryknow · #37 09/12/2007, 05:16 PM

A 3-5 degree change in surface temperature over the course of a month is much less stressful than a 3-5 degree change over the course of a day. The temperature is less important than the rapidity of the change IMHO.

I think thaObviously, corals that are living in a particular climate (like a tidal pool) are adapted to that environment and will tolerate temperatures in that area. Reefers do not generally keep coral populations that have evolved to tolerate the temperature wings in there aquaria however so I'm not sure that I understnad your point.

Wryknow · #38 09/12/2007, 05:16 PM

A 3-5 degree change in surface temperature over the course of a month is much less stressful than a 3-5 degree change over the course of a day. The temperature is less important than the rapidity of the change IMHO.

I think thaObviously, corals that are living in a particular climate (like a tidal pool) are adapted to that environment and will tolerate temperatures in that area. Reefers do not generally keep coral populations that have evolved to tolerate the temperature wings in there aquaria however so I'm not sure that I understnad your point.

OliverM3 · #39 09/12/2007, 05:46 PM

So if this is true we really don't have to worry about anything.
run the tank with whatever lighting and no heater and we're fine.
Even better then fine we're making the corals stronger by subjecting them large temperature swings.

I don't know I think I'll keep my chiller. Though I may play around with setting it slowly in the higher temp range.

triggerfish1976 · #40 09/12/2007, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OliverM3
So if this is true we really don't have to worry about anything.
run the tank with whatever lighting and no heater and we're fine.
Even better then fine we're making the corals stronger by subjecting them large temperature swings.

I don't know I think I'll keep my chiller. Though I may play around with setting it slowly in the higher temp range.

No. Rich's data that he is presenting is based on ocean temp. parameters that have little implications on what we are dealing with regarding captive corals. Most SPS corals these days are generally aqua cultured in aquariums where temp. stability is present. The info Rich is providing might be helpful if you were buying wild caught corals and were able to track them back to the exact "tidal lagoon" that they came from and had the collector provide you with a daily temperature reading for the last year so you could determine if it has become use to temp. swings. Otherwise keeping your tank temperatures as constant as possible and not allowing huge swings would be your safest bet for long term sucess.

OliverM3 · #41 09/12/2007, 06:33 PM

I was just playing I'm not going to do anything like that.
Maybe see if a steady higher temp has any affect on growth but that's about as far as I'm going.
I love the stability of having a chiller.

HBtank · #42 09/12/2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley

HBTank, yes, 85 may be bad for your flame wrasses, but 76-78 is just as bad for things collected in the marshall islands. By keeping both, you're guaranteing that something is outside of its natural range of temperatures.

I was just bringing up one example to show that it is not wise to generalize, but you actually extend the point.

It would seem that this would be making a case for having a targeted temperature that accomodates both collection areas, say 80 degrees in order to avoid unnatural temperatures..?

If you extend this and consider tanks usually have livestock from multiple collection areas, as well as habitats in those areas... Well you get the picture..

It might not harm the livestock to have swings, I personally have seen no real effect, but that does not mean staying within a range that accomodates all livestock is not better.

Some could even make a point that a specifically targeted value may be the BEST choice to maximize health in ALL livestock. Though the end effect MAY be bad if a swing does occur and your livestock has lost the ability to deal with it...

I choose to allow swings, but within 78-81 for 90% of the year, and with the highs during the summer up to 85. This was abnormal, my last high was 83-84 last year. My tank just runs at this temperature so I don't mess with it.

tony1970 · #43 09/12/2007, 07:26 PM

I think one thing is pretty known for sure and seems to be common not only in sealife, but all life on the planet to some extent.

And trigger fish and rich both hit it on the nose .

If you buy corals from the wild they are most likely to deal with tempature swings in the range they are use to.thus keeping them at a stable range could have negative effects if the coral doesnt adapt to constant temp.There may be things taking place we dont know with these swing in temps, but i believe rich is correct to some point that these swings in temp help build an immune system into the coral to be able to tolerant those swings.

You can apply that theory to almost every living thing on this planet, including humans, for example:

I use to live in ny and was born there, we have temps ranging from 10 degrees to 100 in the course of a year, and we are able to adapt pretty good when raised in these conditions.When i moved to hawaii i use to sweat here at 87 just like i would back home. now i been here for over 4 years and i can say i barely sweat anymore, blood thinned whatever. bottom line is this, if your put into a stable temp condition, you body(coral) can adapt to it. But now on the reverse side of this, when i go back to ny for the winter, i litterally cant handle the cold, since we only get as low as 60 out here on a cold day, and being adapted to this, going into the cold extreme is worse now, then it was before.

Thus this is my point. If tank is kept at a tight stable range of +-1 degree, the chances are your coral will suffer greatly if ever brought outside that range for a few days or even hrs.By being in a fluctuating tank, the coral will be able to tolerate the highs and lows more so then a tight ran tank.

And if the tank is kept in a tight range, chances are the corals will be more comfortable then in a swinging tank. Only dangers to this method is if your chiller ever broke or heater went wacky and put you outside the range by say 5 degrees or more then what tank has been running at, and causing the corals to stress more then corals in a fluctuating tank.

then comes where in the world do these corals grow, theres a reason why some grow in some areas and not others.Going back to the ancient theory of when building a reef tank, for the best sucess is to inhabbit animals from a single source they are found in. Which means, dont just buy any coral for your tank , you may succeed sometimes, but chances are great it will never be the way the coral should be and then again it could be better lol

this brings us to, where was the coral raised, just like as where i was raised, if the coral you bought is captive grown, then its use to stable conditions and wont thrive outside it. So it comes down to if the corals you put in your tank are captive raised or wild, and mixing both you will have varied results in longevity of the corals life and or color. With this in mind, i guess its still wise advice to find out as much as you can about the coral your purchasing came from, captive or wild, and can help you better determine how it will react to your system, wether it be fluctuating or stable.

this is my conclusion on tempature and corals, it comes down to what was the coral raised in and you will know the chances of sruvival in your tank.

carlso63 · #44 09/12/2007, 07:30 PM

I would tend to agree more with Rich Conley, but not necessarily for the exact same reasons.

I do believe that reef water temps fluctuate somewhat on a daily (or even hourly basis)... I would say total swings in a 24 hr period of 5 -6 degrees are not unusual or "unnatural"...

I also believe that water depth also plays a role relative to temperature. Just think of the obvious. The deeper you swim (generally) the colder the water gets... sometimes a drastic enough change you can easily feel while swimming.

Well the same thing is true for tropical areas... and what about tidal effects, raising and lowering "how deep" a particular coral or fish, etc. is actually at? Since corals can't move, I would guess that at least certain reef areas may have tide-related temp swings because as the tide comes in / goes out, the water level changes and thus the water temp changes...

IMO, I would rather lean towards allowing some daily fluctuation in my coral tanks rather than trying to get it within 1/10 of a degree constantly... I believe "hardier", more adaptable corals (at least) will result from the former rather than the latter...

carlso63 · #45 09/12/2007, 07:35 PM

Oh... and I believe that my avatar is "hot" also

trd47 · #46 09/12/2007, 08:15 PM

so when my tank starts off at 80 degrees in the morning and gets to 85 in the afternoon is bad or good? I"m so lost.

I thought keeping temps stable were maninly to ensure fishes are less stressed. Maybe the same concept could apply.

Sup reppin Hawaii also man!

oct2274 · #47 09/12/2007, 08:40 PM

fish do not tolerate high temperatures as well as some corals. The majority of fish aren't going to be very happy with temps over 83 or so I'm guessing.

carlso63 · #48 09/12/2007, 09:00 PM

And I totally forgot...

my 125g temp range (Mixed Reef):

Lowest temp / 7AM (all lights off) = 77.8 F

Highest temp / 8PM (just before the MHs go off) = 80.4 F

24 hr temp swing = 2.6 F

tony1970 · #49 09/12/2007, 11:25 PM

well i think one rule of thumb should apply, and that is if you buy most of your corals or all from a local lfs. you should at least try to stay in the same temp range that the corals are already alcimated to in the store, and important to ask how long has the store had the coral in these conditions, longer the better.

It comes down to where the coral has spent most its life in what temp range, if coral was under controlled conditions from time it start to time you buy, chances are you need to be within its temp range for it to sucessfully aclmiate to your system. i believe if the range is so far off as much as 10 degrees could ultimatly make it impossible for the delicate corals to adapt, this theroy doesnt apply so much to the soft corals as it does to sps and lps.

so my suggestion if bulk of coral come from lfs, then maybe you should run your system close to the lfs as far as temp goes , to help them aclimate more, and theres other variables to like salinity,, lighting, flow ect. that play a big part in aclimation to a new home.

but for sps, since most are cultivated, its safe to say these corals are breed under controlled conditions, making it easier today to grow sps then ever before (before they pulled them out of ocean, die off rate was greater then 50%) But today more sps are cultivated in controlled settings, thus making them more adaptable to our systems, and these guys with great sps tanks, are proof of that cultivation in controlled conditions. Only down side is, if tank was ever to swing in a 5-10 degree manner, it could practically wipe your sps corals out, since there acustom to the stable temps. Thats my theory anyways from what i have gathered and experienced with wild and cultivated corals.

tony1970 · #50 09/12/2007, 11:36 PM

when i started this hobby 20 years ago, a friend of mine had some connections in the fiji islands, and we use to get 10-20 sps corals a month he ship to us, only charge us for shipping and we threw him few bucks for the work, but he use to pull sps from ocean for us, till i about puked and thought of what were doing to the real reefs by having him do this. so we stopped. The corals that were sent were or such quality that they shocked you in amazement with there vibrant colors. But the die off rate was greater then 50% and was able to save a few species by fragging.Bad thing about this method, you have no idea what your putting in your tank lol. Diases, parasites, you name it.

Ive been helping a friend build a 90 gal for the first time and we doing good with it over internet, i dont have a tank right now cause im currently renting and looking to buy a home here soon, and one of my first addtions to the home will be a 1500 gal reef aqarium.