Raising magnesium to control algae - Page 2

Fishbulb2 · #26 10/26/2007, 06:02 PM

I don't think the idea is that your levels of Mg or SO4 will give you bryopsis. It's just that raising them way above NSW concentrations definitely kills off the Bryopsis. The relationship is grossly elevated Mg with EPSOM or Kent mag equals no more Bryopsis.

MCsaxmaster · #27 10/26/2007, 06:19 PM

Why? Why would elevated Mg or SO4 be in any way harmful to Bryoposis or any other algae?

cj

Fishbulb2 · #28 10/26/2007, 07:50 PM

I don't know why. I also don't know why Raid Ant Bait kills ants, but it does. I believe a thread full of first hand experience by people who raised their Mg to 1600 pm and watched their Byropsis completely melt away. Again, this is algae that they had for months or in some cases even years and suddenly it was gone within a couple days of raising the mag. This is with a lot of people. Obviously it works, I just don't know why. Read the thread. It's pretty hard to imagine it just suddenly died on it's own for no reason.

45commando · #29 10/26/2007, 10:19 PM

There is a "sticky" thread that shows that elevated Mg levels are harmful to Bryopsis.It also appears that it seems to only affect bryopsis sp. & not other forms of algae.I have done a few google searches & there have been a few lab type results posted that seem to support the evidence.I currently have an outbreak & have just started to raise my Mg levels.Hopefully I will be able to report back with good news.Apparantly the boosted Mg directly interferes with the bryopsis' normal processes,without affecting most other lifeforms(some people have reported loss of snails).HTH

45commando · #30 10/26/2007, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MCsaxmaster
Uh, no, heavy metals do not increase the growth rate of any sort of organism.

also there are definately some heavy metals that do contribute to growth,such as molybdenum/strontium for corraline algae growth.

cutegecko3 · #31 10/27/2007, 12:23 AM

yes that is true but mcsaxmaster will deny it to his grave.haha.

dreamreefer · #32 10/27/2007, 01:44 AM

mcsaxmaster, why not?

MCsaxmaster · #33 10/27/2007, 12:49 PM

There is a "sticky" thread that shows that elevated Mg levels are harmful to Bryopsis.It also appears that it seems to only affect bryopsis sp. & not other forms of algae.I have done a few google searches & there have been a few lab type results posted that seem to support the evidence.I currently have an outbreak & have just started to raise my Mg levels.Hopefully I will be able to report back with good news.Apparantly the boosted Mg directly interferes with the bryopsis' normal processes,without affecting most other lifeforms(some people have reported loss of snails).HTH

There could be a lot of things going on, and there's no reason to think that somewhat elevated Mg or SO4 is in any way harmful to Bryopsis (or much else). There do tend to be a lot of impurities in magnesium salts though, perhaps one of those is responsible?...

also there are definately some heavy metals that do contribute to growth,such as molybdenum/strontium for corraline algae growth.

Holy heck no. Firstly, molybdate is a nutrient used by nitrogen fixers in miniscule amounts, so it most certainly isn't a heavy metal, and it is a nutrient only to N-fixers. Coralline algae don't use it whatsoever. Strontium is incorportated into the skeletons of calcifying organisms at about the same concentration as it occurrs in sea water (though there might be a bit of fractionation). There is no evidence whatsoever that it increases the rate of growth of any organism. By your logic lead, mercury, and uranium should increase the growth rate of coralline algae

cj

45commando · #34 10/27/2007, 03:05 PM

So are you saying no organism utilizes heavy metals?

MCsaxmaster · #35 10/27/2007, 03:49 PM

I'm saying no organism uses heavy metals as a nutrient. Heavy metals are variably toxic, therefore increased abundance of a heavy metal can result in anything from no harm to severe harm to an organism depending on concentration and the ability of the organism to detoxify the heavy metal.

cj

TylerMoore · #36 10/27/2007, 04:31 PM

isn't magnesium sulphate used to fetilize plants because of how well it disolves in water (this is also known as Epsom Salt, used in this hobby as well)? I'm pretty sure magnesium is essential in the developement of chloroplasts, so I would assume that Mg actually benefits photosynthetic algae. Am I wrong in this inference? You can raise Mg with epsom salt, as it disolves fairly well in water... something like magnesium sulfide hetrahydrate or something (when placed in water).

On that note, I don't think raising Mg levels will get rid of Bryopsis, although I am not sure of the effect of extremely high concentrations of Mg.

TylerMoore · #37 10/27/2007, 04:31 PM

isn't magnesium sulphate used to fetilize plants because of how well it disolves in water (this is also known as Epsom Salt, used in this hobby as well)? I'm pretty sure magnesium is essential in the developement of chloroplasts, so I would assume that Mg actually benefits photosynthetic algae. Am I wrong in this inference? You can raise Mg with epsom salt, as it disolves fairly well in water... something like magnesium sulfide hetrahydrate or something (when placed in water).

On that note, I don't think raising Mg levels will get rid of Bryopsis, although I am not sure of the effect of extremely high concentrations of Mg.

TylerMoore · #38 10/27/2007, 04:31 PM

isn't magnesium sulphate used to fetilize plants because of how well it disolves in water (this is also known as Epsom Salt, used in this hobby as well)? I'm pretty sure magnesium is essential in the developement of chloroplasts, so I would assume that Mg actually benefits photosynthetic algae. Am I wrong in this inference? You can raise Mg with epsom salt, as it disolves fairly well in water... something like magnesium sulfide hetrahydrate or something (when placed in water).

On that note, I don't think raising Mg levels will get rid of Bryopsis, although I am not sure of the effect of extremely high concentrations of Mg.

steve9 · #39 10/28/2007, 12:38 AM

If you put a large amount of snails and mitrax crabs they will become very good at cleaning hair and red slime /bubble algae from your tank....this only happens if you have what seems to many as to many....you need very large turbos to trim dowm the hair then all the snails can do the job for you....you remove the snails and crabs as they get large as they will turn over corals....sallylightfoot crabs are one of the best hair algae eaters their are,if you look at their small claws they can not catch any heathty fish....Most of the people on the net give bad advice or make simple algae problems into chem problems....keep adding small snails and crabs as you remove the large ones and you will never have any problems....

cutegecko3 · #40 10/28/2007, 12:43 AM

credible scientist have done credible research and have concluded that heavy metals do help to increase growth of algae.and yes it was heavy metals including aluminium,and copper.it sounds crazy to me but i cant deny their results.

MCsaxmaster · #41 10/28/2007, 01:17 AM

Tyler,

Yes, magnesium is an essential nutrient, but there is a TON of Mg in sea water, and relatively little is needed. Algae are never going to be Mg-limited in sea water--they'd be almost as likely to be water-limited

Cutegecko3,

Yes, of course copper is needed. It is an essential micronutrient. Only very small amounts are needed though (not a problem since it is usually in very short supply). Heavy excess of copper is quite toxic though. I'm not aware of any organism that uses aluminum as a nutrient. Would you please provide references demonstrating aluminum as an essential nutrient?

Chris

cutegecko3 · #42 10/28/2007, 01:38 AM

sorry if i have confused anybody.but no one has claimed metals are nutrients they are neccessary elements.every known life form needs them,so do we.you can simply read the back of a bottle of centrum vitamins or ask any doctor and he will tell you without them you will die.algae arent much different if these metals arent replaced they will die too.sorry but my memory isnt very good but i believe it was in an issue of coral magazine and i believe i read an article on rc as well.

majesticangelfish · #43 10/28/2007, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MCsaxmaster
There could be a lot of things going on, and there's no reason to think that somewhat elevated Mg or SO4 is in any way harmful to Bryopsis (or much else). There do tend to be a lot of impurities in magnesium salts though, perhaps one of those is responsible?...
cj

Agreed.

MCsaxmaster · #44 10/28/2007, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cutegecko3
sorry if i have confused anybody.but no one has claimed metals are nutrients they are neccessary elements.every known life form needs them,so do we.you can simply read the back of a bottle of centrum vitamins or ask any doctor and he will tell you without them you will die.algae arent much different if these metals arent replaced they will die too.sorry but my memory isnt very good but i believe it was in an issue of coral magazine and i believe i read an article on rc as well.

Some metals are essential nutrients. Without them an organism will die. Other metals are potent toxins. With a high enough concentration an organism will die. If you do not differentiate the two...well, good luck to you

cj

Fishbulb2 · #45 10/28/2007, 12:21 PM

Boy has this thread taken an absurd turn.

MSU Fan · #46 11/13/2007, 01:36 PM

Back to Mag/Bryopsis discussion -

One belief from that thread is that the sulphate from the Epsom Salt or Kent Tech-M is being used as a substitute food source for the Bryopsis, instead of its usual phosphate/nitrate dinner.

Since sulphates are not on the usual menu, the Bryopsis is gorging itself on food it somehow can't utilize properly. So it starts to die off. This demonstrates why there has been almost no success using magflake (or is it dowflake?) because that is magnesium chloride (no sulphate).

So while the suggestion by the op in the other thread is that raising the mag level killed the Bryopsis, it is more likely that the magnesium is just the easily measurable portion. Even then, the levels people had to raise their mag level to varies from 1400ppm to 2100ppm depending on the tank, time, amount of Bryopsis, and probably which variety of Bryopsis you are dealing with. Oh, and the amount of its normal diet available during the treatment period.

It seems to work, and I will be trying this shortly since I have both Bryopsis and Derbesia in my tank. I don't think that there has been any conclusive evidence against GHA, but hey, one can hope right?

Fishbulb2 · #47 11/13/2007, 02:42 PM

Yup good luck. I agree that the sulphate is the more likely candidate since the Magflake doesn't seem to work. It's still convenient to measure the Magnesium as you go along though since you can easily deduce how much sulfate you are adding as well. Measuring the Mag also gives us a guideline for others to use as well, requiring that the supplement is the same (Kent or EPSOM).
good luck, I finally just used a small herd of emerald crabs and they wiped out all of my bubble algae. I'll leave them in for a few months, then they get the boot.

MSU Fan · #48 11/13/2007, 02:45 PM

Thank Fishbulb2 - I'll post some results, but it generally takes a week or so for any real results...so see you in a week or 2.

starsbravo · #49 11/13/2007, 03:06 PM

what is a good mag test kit to buy in your opinion?

MSU Fan · #50 11/13/2007, 03:08 PM

I don't have one. I am going to borrow a friends. My understanding is that the Salifert kit is the easiest to use. However, they are tough to find since they are usually backordered...