Beloved Anemone

[Angel*Fish]

Is it normal for a clown to stay on his BTA except when offered food? I thought I was going to get to see him swim sometimes!

He LOVES that anemone. The only time he stops with the wiggling around in it is when I presume he's just resting up a bit (for more wiggling).

I'm not even sure that he even actually sleeps. Whenever I peak in at night he's all cozied up with the anemone wrapped around him like a blanket -- but still wiggling. Do they wiggle in their sleep?

BTW he's a gold-striped clown.

[DreamMarine]

I have a LT anemone and a tomato clown, he does the same exact thing! LOL

[Angel*Fish]

Thanks, DreamMarine, I guess I should be grateful he's not terrorizing the tank, I've heard they can be aggressive..

[Kimmy]

I have a Tomato clown and a Clarki Clown in differnt tanks and they are both obsessed with their anenomes. They only leave them to feed...I love it!!

[Angel*Fish]

Kimmy, thanks for the info... There's a new thread about a BTA splitting and now the clown uses them both. That sounds to me like the clown could be viewed at least a little more. I wonder if I should just buy another BTA...

It's good to hear that it's not a sign that the clown is ill or something.

I'm with you guys about all the "loving" being adorable -- it's also very rewarding having any pet appear to be so gloriously happy... but my tank is only 30g and the maroon is not small and I can't add that many more fish, so a little swimming would be appreciated...

Does anyone speak maroon clownese? Maybe I should just talk it over with the fish!

[TangHeaven]

If you read up on the clowns, that is their normal behavior in the wild. The anemone protects the clowns, they are very slow swimmers so they stick very clown to their host for protection. Other fish have a good fear of the anemones due to their sting and could be eatten by them. The clown family stays in the way area it entire life..they will do the same with your tank....

[Angel*Fish]

TangHeaven, well, I guess I misunderstood phrases like "hover near" & "stick very close"... my clown is more like what I would call "glued to" or "couldn't fit a toothpick in between"..

I think your post supports the idea that clowns should always be kept with an anemone - which is in conflict with what seems to be the usual advice that it is just fine to keep a clown without one..

Still thinking of getting another BTA to see if I can encourage a little off the anemone action

[TangHeaven]

My clarkii's were the same way with their anemone. I had two for about 1 yr...then they started moving around the tank and got to each other...of course that was death.

My female Clarkii took it the worst...they were starting to breed right before that and then stop. I recently picked up a nice big colt..and they go into it. Of course its nothing like the bond with the anemones...people would sit for hours and watch them together. I always thought that the Clarkii was feeding the anemone and then when I read Clownfish by Joyce Wilkerson, I realize they were hiding their food they thought...haha : so I guess they are the smartest either...haha

After many flames and really reading about the anemones, I won't purchase one. They are needed in the wild to protect the Clowns...I did everything I read was right to keep these guys alive, down to using my well water which was suppose to be better for them. But like I said after about a yr, they started one started moving and got to the other, they fought and both ended up dying. Up till that point they were huge, deep colors...

[Dragonlady]

Quote from TH:
After many flames and really reading about the anemones, I won't purchase one. They are needed in the wild to protect the Clowns...I did everything I read was right to keep these guys alive,....
____________________________________________________

There are anemones, such as H. malu, from Hawaiii where there are no clownfish for the anemone to protect. My clownfish immediately accepted their purple anemone from Hawaii, and no clownfish in the wild were forced out of thier home. Somebody obviously named them anemonefish for a reason. They love to live in anemones!

[Angel*Fish]

My question is this : as Dragonlady pointed out, they LOVE their anemones, it seems like that would mean that optimum conditions would require one, right?

As Tangheaven illustrated, we don't know what they are "thinking" (saving food as opposed to feeding the anemone); but we do know they have a very strong drive to have an anemone. So is it correct of us to keep a clown with no plans to obtain one for it?

I don't know anyone who, for example, recommends keeping a jawfish without a deep substrate area for it to burrow.

Maybe to survive in the wild an anemone is required for the clownfish to be safe. If that's so, who's to say that the clown understands that the aquariast(sp?) will not introduce any dangerous predators or that there isn't one just around the corner?

Opinions?

[David Grigor]

Originally posted by mantisagogo
So is it correct of us to keep a clown with no plans to obtain one for it?
Opinions?

IMO yes. A clown in a fish tank can live without an anemone. A clown in the wild cannot. If keeping an anemone in your tank is at the expense of a wild fish then in all good conscience you should not keep an anemone.

I have had clowns use other corals for a nest just as clingy as an anemone.

I don't have a real problem keeping anemones if you can take care of them and especially if was captive raised......

[Angel*Fish]

But are they "happy" without an anemone? Or are they stressed somewhat because they are lacking the thing that makes them FEEL safe?

Your point about taking anemones from wild clowns who need them in the wild to stay alive is well taken.. I intend to check on the one I have and will be careful not to acquire another one that isn't tank bred.

David G , thanks for the info on that point -- I intend to do some reading on reef ecology to try and avoid any further blunders.

[Jared Cooper]

I don't understand why everone gets so upset about taking anemones from the wild when we take so many fish and corals from the wild as well. Is it because anemones live so long int he wild and are more difficult to maintain in captivity. If that is the case I have had a lot of luck with anemones compared to a few SPS corals that got RTN on me. A lot of fish die in our hobby, should we not take them? A lot of various animals depend on the corals and fish we take as well to survive besides the clown fish and anemone relationship. I think people are so against having anemones more because it is trendy and it makes people feel like they are so conservation minded. Well if you own any animal taken form its home in the wild you are supporting the deaths of the many thousands of fish and corals that die in transportation to the USA from thier home.

With that said, I think it is okay to take animals from the ocean for our hobby, if properly watched it is a renewable resource and hopefully someday it will led to us raising our own animals. I am just a little tired of hearing how horrible people are for buying anemonies, I think that is just lame and hypocritical. The only people who can complain are those who just have captive raised animals. If you don't you are just as bad as the 'evil' anemone owners like me. IME I know a lot more people who have anemones for years compared to those with SPS and a lot of fish. Get off the band wagon.

[TangHeaven]

I have to say I agree with others statements. I was new to the hobby when I got my anemones. The flames that I got on another site where unbelievable. Instead of trying to help me learn what was needed to make this guy survive...I was burned on the cross.

I truely enjoyed the interaction other the clowns and the anemone. But my male is very happy with the colt I have now.
I realize that there are anemones out there that have lived several years in a tank...and fish that have lived only days.

Its a really hard call....but I'm one that believes in everyone having a right to say whats right and wrong in their minds. I think its great that you are truely weighting this out...what you think is best for your tank.

Good luck with whatever your decision is. Pick up that book by Joyce if you get a chance....it really is good.

[Anemone]

A couple of points -

- Are clownfish stressed and/or unhappy without an anemone? Who knows, but generally fish that are continually stressed don't spawn, and anemones spawn quite prolifically without an anemone (or even an anemone substitute) present.

-Why is it "wrong" to remove anemones from the wild? Because clownfish do not exist in the wild without the protection of an anemone. Each anemone removed from the wild (90%+ of which die) could live for hundreds of years (even the experts have no idea what the life-span of an anemone is) and represents the habitat for literally hundreds to even thousands of clownfish.

Just something to consider.

Kevin

[Jared Cooper]

I agree that removing an anemone has a negative affect on the clownfish population. But what I don't understand is what makes that any different from taking a lot of other 'acceptable' wild animals from the ocean. Many corals live for a very long time and provide homes for a lot of animals in much the same way anemones do. Corals are the building block of coral reefs, yet we take them and they do die, often. In fact anemonies grow faster and reproduce mush faster than the SPS corals. Cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses provide very important services and yet they are collected. When you take a fish from the ocean you are taking an animal that could have reproduced or supplied food for another animal, so in a sense you are breaking down the food chain in that ecosystem. So if you own anything from the ocean how can anyone justify thier attack on those who keep anemonies? I don't think one can. Like I said before, I don't think it is wrong to take animals from the ocean in a responsible fashin. Reponsible meaning that the populations are not damaged and have cause minimal damage to the reef. I think taking anemonies from the reef can be done with minimal damage. When I dove in the red sea I saw an awful lot of bubble and long tenticle anemonies without a single clownfish. If a few of those were taken, it would have had a minamal inpact.
Also, anemone, were do you get your statisic that 90%+ anemonies die. If is from this internet survey http://trickstr.tripod.com/survey_r.htm this survey is not a true representation of the truth and shouldn't be stated as fact which people oten are doing. While it is a noble effort, statistically it is full of bias and problems that make it a very poor survey and not something to be quoted as fact. If you asked a statistics professor I'm positive they would agree.

[Kimmy]

Tang Heaven..Which city in Oregon do you live in? My stepdaughters live in LeGrande. Is that close to you? I live in Albany which is south of Salem and North of Eugene. I nevr see anyone else on this board from Oregon. If you ever make it this way you have got to stop and see "The Crazy fish guy". Once you buy from him..you'll never go back!!! Kimmy

[Anemone]

Originally posted by Jared Cooper
Many corals live for a very long time and provide homes for a lot of animals in much the same way anemones do. Corals are the building block of coral reefs, yet we take them and they do die, often. In fact anemonies grow faster and reproduce mush faster than the SPS corals. Cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses provide very important services and yet they are collected. When you take a fish from the ocean you are taking an animal that could have reproduced or supplied food for another animal, so in a sense you are breaking down the food chain in that ecosystem.

Actually, I disagree with you here. You're comparing apples and oranges. While removing whole corals, frags, cleaner chrimps and wrasses certainly has some effect on the ecosystem, a coral that is fragged leaves something behind, while an collected anemone doeasn't. Further, in none of the above cases are you removing the only habitat for a reef inhabitant, as you are with anemones.

As an example, remove a clownfish (or a few) from a group living in the wild in an anemone, and if you happen to remove the male or female (as versus a juvenile), and there may be a slight delay in continuing reproductive efforts. However, if you remove the anemone, all the clowns will die, and there will be no further wild reproductive efforts from this anemone and associated clowns.

So if you own anything from the ocean how can anyone justify thier attack on those who keep anemonies?

I do not justify anyone's attack on a person who keeps anemones, and neither was I attacking anyone (I have 8 anemones in my home tank). I do, however, take strong exception to an industry that sells whatever people will buy, without making any attempt to ensure that the person has at least a slight chance of success.

Also, anemone, were do you get your statisic that 90%+ anemonies die. If is from this internet survey http://trickstr.tripod.com/survey_r.htm this survey is not a true representation of the truth and shouldn't be stated as fact which people oten are doing. While it is a noble effort, statistically it is full of bias and problems that make it a very poor survey and not something to be quoted as fact. If you asked a statistics professor I'm positive they would agree.

I also agree that a statistics professor would feel that the cited survey is flawed - surveys usually are. However, my experience with people in the wholesale and retail business in Los Angeles, as well as with hobbysists throughout the United States convinces me that Joyce's survey under-reports the actual rate of loss of collected anemones.

Just my opinion,

Kevin

[David Grigor]

I am not a die hard anemone keepers Hater.

But is definate something that needs some thought and shouldn't just go out on a whim and buy one......

If everyone took the attitude that all clownfish need an anemone, then all of the tank raised clownfish that companies are breeding ( thousands and thousands ) would need an anemone. However, you can't get an anemone to split at will in the quantities the would be demanded therefore you would be taking out of the wild many more anemones and wild clowns populations would certainly suffer.......

If you don't already have the Clownfishes book by Joyce Wilkerson then put it on your Christmas wish list. It's quite an interesting book ......

[TangHeaven]

Hey Kimmy I live north of Bend Oregon. LaGrande is about another 6 hours northwest from us. We are right in the middle of Oregon. Sorry you haven't met other reefers yet...There are a lot of us here. In fact there is a reef group at http://home.pacifier.com/~reef/Pacific.htm

Thats a great way to meet others. Who and where is this great fish guy...would love to check out the store..

By the way my son is a firefighter/paramedic in Corvallis..pretty close to you.

Tami

[Angel*Fish]

It sounds like everyone would agree that it would be preferable to avoid taking an animal from the wild if it is possible to obtain it otherwise.

Let's not forget the justification we might allow ourselves that by keeping reefs, we are helping to keep alive awareness of how precious and delicate they are. Whether that's valid justification or not, I don't know...

I do believe that most of us who keep aquariums are kind souls who don't like to see themselves as doing unnecessary harm in the world. ALL of us expend a great deal of time, effort and money on these creatures and their aquariums.

For goodness sake -- there is a war going on (not to mention world hunger, disease, etc.) and one of MY big concerns is whether little bitty clown fish are "happy"! But isn't this just an indication of a normal need to nurture my little piece of the world -- to have a positive effect in one's immediate environment?

Let's face it, a BTA is not much more than a watery brainless stomach! And though I went to a lot of trouble nursing "him" when I got him, I had not too much guilt about taking out one of his "brothers" (an aptasia) which had come in on a coral's base.

My favorite foods come from the sea and I also eat certain mammals! But we shouldn't forget that most of our little ocean buddies would eat us in the blink of an eye if we were the right size and tossed into the tank!

Let he who hasn't killed an aptasia throw the first stone (I'm already ducking)!

One more thing, it's a too bad that the "gatekeepers", the LFS's, are in direct conflict of interest in seeing that animals only go to folks who will properly care for them...but we as consumers can make an effort to support the stores that are trying the hardest to keep animals from being wasted.

I still want to know if you guys think clowns feel stressed without an anemone (or coral) ! Thanks for your opinion, David G.)

The ecology discussion you guys are having is really fascinating.. not qualified to comment.. need to read up.. also can't wait to get anemone/clown book.

[Mushroom Boy]

Good thread! IMO, and from what I've observed, I don't think clowns that are kept without an anemone are in any way stressed. My friend has a mated pair that constantly laid eggs without one. Now, he has an aquacultured BTA (well, 4 BTA's now, after all the splits ), and they still lay eggs all the time. I think we should make every effort to obtain aquacultured anemones (and all other tank inhabitants for that matter), whenever possible. Our hobby will survive for a long, long time if we prove ourselves to be responsible caretakers.

[Angel*Fish]

Thanks Mushroom Boy! Maybe I didn't have to post that other thread after all ...

I know that some animals won't breed unless they are "happy", but isn't it also true that some also breed when the they are somewhat "threatened" so that there will be others to carry on since they don't "expect" to survive themselves?

BTW -- I hope I don't discourage any further discussion on the other subject -- just like M.B., I'm finding it very interesting!

[TangHeaven]

Once again I will say its nice to see this being dicussed..and not flaming each other. Flames are painful...and can make new people shy away without getting the education that they need.

One of the funny things that I saw when it came down to anemones, was people would email me and tell me that they had them....but no way would put it on the thread...

So congraduation to RC for having good people in here that only want to help...and not show that they are smarter reef keepers that anyone else...

[Angel*Fish]

Jared C., just read the link you provided -- thanks... I've been looking for some specific info on anemone diets without much luck.

Still planning on picking up the book...but I'm wondering if there are certain foods that the anemone is more likely to receive from the clownfish because the clown let's him have the food that is less preferred by him while he is vying for different food for himself.

I have definitely observed this in my aquarium, but of course the fact that the clown doesn't eat it and the anemone does is no evidence of what that particular "needed" food in the wild would be.