Holy LED light Hood Batman. Solaris.

[BeanAnimal]

I think Sanjay is working on the ability to do just that hahns (drop any tested bulb into any tested reflector). I guess it will be a waste of time thought. PJF has declared the MH dead and the market rejection all but seconds away

[hahnmeister]

Well, Sanjay doesnt have to do that... anyone can do it with simple algebra.

[Sanjay]

You will have this comparison available soon, as soon I can find time to finish writing off the results I presented at MACNA. I have data for lumenarc at 24" and 30", small DE lumenmax at 24 and 30", and Soalris LED at 24 and 30", and a t5 set up at 24 and 30". Should answer a lot of the questions that are arising here.

This is next on my list to do and hopefully I will find some time to finish it in the next few weeks. I was waitng to get a good T5 set up to include in there, and now I have the ATI T5 setup to test and include in this comparison.


sanjay.

[pjf]

That's great!
Which version of the Solaris will be in your comparison?

[Philwd]

Wow Sanjay. That will be sweet. I can't wait.

[pjf]

I think most aquarists would really love to see the latest Solaris I4 and AquaIllumination fixtures in a head-to-head comparison.

Dr. Joshi,

Are you able to get a "loaner" AquaIllumination fixture to test?

Chris,

Is there any chance that one of your AquaIllumination fixtures can be loaned to Dr. Joshi for his comparison?

A year or two ago, I shipped to Dr. Joshi an LED fixture that I purchased. Dr. Joshi tested it, sent the test results to me, and returned the fixture in good order. He can be trusted to return any loaners in good condition.

Thanks very much!

[cclough_KeyDev]

If Sanjay is interested, we could arrange something.

-Chris

Originally posted by pjf
Is there any chance that one of your AquaIllumination fixtures can be loaned to Dr. Joshi for his comparison?

[pjf]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Now THAT is a relevant study! Good grief where do you find this stuff PJF. Honestly, how can you cut and paste things like that and keep a straight face. I can find MH bulbs with 30 lumens per watt too! I can also find MH and T5 bulbs that exceed 90 lumens per watt, some of them over 100. These parameters can be gleaned directly from the manufacturers data sheets. GE, USHIO, Phillips, Sylvania, Osram, etc.

More bold catch phrases and cherry picked data. This entire arguement has become silly, as you refuse to acknowledge the relevant facts in favor of pasting misleading information to back your opinion.

Hmmm…..

The survey conducted by the Lighting Research Center (http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpi...pdf/table1.pdf) used low Kelvin metal halide lamps that should be more efficient (lumens per watt) than those commonly used by aquarists. Yet none of the 250-watt lamps in the survey could “hold a candle” to the efficiency of the Solaris I4 (88 lumens/watt) and AquaIllumination (100 lumens/watt) LEDs.

If you think that the list of higher Kelvin aquarium metal halide lamps (http://www.cnidarianreef.com/lamps.cfm) suggested by JCTewks is more representative, I computed PAR/watt figures for them. The most efficient lamp/ballast combination was the Iwasaki/PFO-HQI.

Lamp	Ballast	PAR	Watts	PAR/Watt	Relative Efficiency
XM20K	PFO STD	242	285	0.85	1.0
Iwasaki	PFO HQI	950	355	2.68	3.2
Iwasaki	Icecap	651	252	2.58	3.0

Yet, the Iwasaki/PFO-HQI was only 3.2 times as efficient as the XM20K/PFO-STD. Not enough to clearly demonstrate that it is more efficient than the AquaIllumination P4 LED. I explained why in my previous post in this thread. What is clear is that out of 149 combinations of aquarium lamps & ballasts, only 2 combinations have 3 times the efficiency of the base XM20K/PFO-STD combination. If the XM20K/PFO-STD is comparable to the XM20K/Coralife in Dana Riddle's review, this implies that the AI LED fixture may have greater efficiency than 99% (147/149) of the metal halide combinations that JCTewks suggested I examine.

Well... post your sources and calculations and prove me wrong, Bean.

[JCTewks]

Sanjay's sight has many more bulbs tested, but he is measuring PPFD. How would you convert PPFD measurements on Sanjay's sight into a PAR figure?

[Sanjay]

Originally posted by JCTewks
Sanjay's sight has many more bulbs tested, but he is measuring PPFD. How would you convert PPFD measurements on Sanjay's sight into a PAR figure?

Well, if you guys would take more time to read and understand, instead of wasting it arguing without understanding, you would know this

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/sj/index.php

PAR is just a term of Photsynthetically available Radiation, and can be measured in a several different ways. Just saying PAR does not really tell you what units are being used. I could easily measure PAR in energy units. When PAR is measured as the Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD) the units are micromoles/m^2/sec. So PAR as you are using it is equal to PPFD. There is no conversion required.

UNlike others on this board, I do not have the patience to keep repeating myself especially when the information can be easily found.

sanjay.

[pjf]

Originally posted by cclough_KeyDev
If Sanjay is interested, we could arrange something.

-Chris

Thanks very much, Chris, for your generous offer to loan an AquaIllumination LED fixture for Dr. Joshi's comparative study.

Dr. Joshi,

It would greatly enhance the aquarium hobby if you would please add the AquaIllumination LED fixture to your upcoming comparative study. Chris (cclough_KeyDev) is from AquaIllumination and like you, he is a well respected member of this forum and has added positively to this discussion.

Thanks very much!

[pjf]

As a matter of fact, I did look up your Reef Lighting website (http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/) earlier. Thanks for this invaluable resource.

The 250-watt XM20K lamp produces 61 PPFD when paired with the Reef Fanatic ballast. I chose this combination as a reference because it consumes 257 watts which is close to the 277 watts consumed by the XM20K/Coralife combination tested by Dana Riddle. The efficiency is 0.2374 PPFD per watt.

The 88-watt AquaIllumination LED fixture in Dana Riddle’s study produces a greater light output than the 277-watt XM20K/Coralife combination. Let’s assume that the XM20K/Coralife combination has a similar 61 PPFD performance as the XM20K/Reef-Fanatic combination. Then the AquaIllumination has a light output that exceeds 61 PPFD and an efficiency that exceeds 0.69 (= 61 PPFD / 88 W).

In comparison, the most efficient metal halide system in the link suggested by JCTewks is that of the Iwasaki/PFO-HQI. It produces 189 PPFD and consumes 373 watts with an efficiency of 0.5067. This is less efficient than the calculated AquaIllumination efficiency.

Bean, can you find out what percentage of 250-watt lamps in Dr. Joshi’s website has an efficiency exceeding that of the AquaIllumination LED fixture?

If you think that is too hard, let's make it easier. Just look up a standard 70-watt metal halide lamp with greater light output than the 88-watt AquaIllumination. Alternatively, find a standard 70-watt metal halide lamp which has an efficiency exceeding the P4 LED's 100 lumens per watt.

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
I can also find MH and T5 bulbs that exceed 90 lumens per watt, some of them over 100. These parameters can be gleaned directly from the manufacturers data sheets. GE, USHIO, Phillips, Sylvania, Osram, etc.

That should be easy for you, right?

[JCTewks]

Sanjay, Thanks for the info...sorry that i have not read that already

And another possibly stupid question...the lights you test, what distance are the tests taken at? are they pinpoint or cumulative?

Sorry for asking questions, I just couldn;t find the info on your site.

[JCTewks]

but what is the actual output of the AI? According to Dana's article it's hard to figure out for a comparison. There are measurements at 5" and 14.25" and they are all pinpoint measurements.

[flyingphish]

i was thinking about going led.

not anymore. hahn is right. need better comparisons against top end mh equipment.

so its a pfo pendant in 400w hqi 20k radiums for me...

[hahnmeister]

flyingphish... I would do two things different from what you just mentioned... 1. use a lumenarc style pendant... PFOs arent the best reflectors around by a long shot... not bad... but not the best either. 2. Radiums are only HQI in the 150 and 250 watt versions. The 400 is really a 360watt bulb, not even 400 let alone HQI. If you are going to go HQI, use the Aquaconnect 14,000K... its more 'radium' than the 'Radium', and it is a HQI rated bulb (with a killer output as well as longevity).

[flyingphish]

Hahn pm sent

[pjf]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Well, Sanjay doesnt have to do that... anyone can do it with simple algebra.

Very true! In fact, only arithmetic is necessary. Here’s how we can compare BeanAnimal’s suggested metal halide lamp with the AquaIllumination LED array using Dr. Joshi’s website data (http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/) and Dana Riddle’s review.

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Chris,

I think the general concensus is that the fixtures need to be tested against decent setups.

A Phoenix 14K in a ReefOptix III or Lumenarc, LumenMax, etc.

The generic spider reflector is a very inefficient reflector.

Lamp	Ballast	Shielded	PPFD	Watts	Efficiency
XM20K SE1	Reef Fanatic	N	61	257	0.2374
Phoenix14K DE2	PFO HQI	Y	85	323	0.2656
Phoenix14K DE1	PFO HQI	Y	88	325	0.2726
Iwasaki6500K SE1	PFO HQI	N	189	373	0.5067
AquaIllumination	N/A	N	>61	88	>0.69

The AquaIllumination figures were derived by assuming that the 257W XM20K/Reef-Fanatic fixture is similar in performance to the 277W XM20K/Coralife fixture tested by Dana Riddle. It is likely that the higher wattage XM20K/Coralife is more powerful and subsequently, the AquaIllumination may be more powerful still. These assumptions are very conservative as it has been noted that peak measurements of the AI LED array are 2x the peak measurements of the XM20K/Coralife.

The bottom line is that the 12" AquaIllumination LED fixture performs at a higher efficiency than the “decent” setups suggested by BeanAnimal and JCTewks. Feel free to go to Dr. Joshi’s website to make other comparisons.

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
In other words the LED fixture has a lower output at a lower wattage. We could as easily switch to a lower wattage Halide setup and get the same results!

Not true!

It is likely that the AquaIllumination is "on par" with the DE lamps in the table above. The assumptions are very conservative as it has been noted that peak measurements of the AI LED array are 2x the peak measurements of the XM20K/Coralife.

The efficiency of the AquaIllumination 32-LED array is scalable. In other words, one can order a fixture with fewer or more LED arrays and the efficiency will not vary. Low and mid-wattage (400W or lower) metal halide setups result in lower efficiency. It is rare to find a 400W or lower metal halide lamp that approaches 100 lumens per watt at mid-life or even when new. This is especially true with the higher Kelvin lamps favored by aquarists.

[BeanAnimal]

Again PJF you are mixing and matching data and making assumptions to derive your point. You are mixing the data collected by Dana with regard to fixture radiation and trying to compare that to the raw bulb data posted on Sanjays site.

You have NOT placed the bulbs in a suitable reflector or mapped the spectral output and intensity to that of a known measured reflector.

You have confused Luminous efficiency with PAR measured in PPFD and you have made several assumptions based on your opinion.

You are drawing conclusions and speaking as an expert when it can be easily demonstrated that you are not at all well versed on this subject matter.

What matters is the amount and quality of light falling on the desired focus area. A T5 bulb is not much more efficient than a T12 bulb. However, the T5 bulb can be fitted with a highly efficient reflector and will outperform the T12 bulb over the same focus area when the average light is measured. An LED is a direct radiator with a lens. the MH bulb radiates energy in all directions and it must be reflected back into the desired focus.

Again, nobody is disputing that the LEDs are not growing in efficiency and will soon surpass other forms of lighting. What is being debated is the overall performance of the fixture over an aquarium. This is something you do not appear to grasp.

We CAN measure the AI or any other LED fixture and then plug the known spectral data from a measured MH bulb into a mathematical model of a reflector and make a meaningful comparison between the two. This has yet to be done, but as Sanjay has indicated, it is not to far away.

You speak in absolutes and bottom lines, yet you have made up data to come to those points. It is a bothersome pattern in a majority of your posts and frankly I tire of responding to them. The condescending tone and pandering to the experts also gets rather old. Chris may have been polite, but he has 6 posts here at RC. Does that make him a well respected member of this forum? You speak us as if you have helped to enlighten Sanjay about LEDs and you speak to us as if you have been instrumental in the testing and collaboration between Sanjay and AI. This may not be your intention but your remarks certainly do come off in that light (no pun).

Rest assured if you keep making the same argument, you will eventually be correct! There is no doubt that the LED fixtures will improve greatly. The funny part is that you have posted this same argument since the first release of the SOLARIS. What do they say about a stopped clock?

Enjoy folks! Until Sanjay or somebody with the proper test equipment and unbiased motives updates this thread with measured data, this is a pointless argument.

[GSMguy]

Bean im not sure why you bother, but hats off to you for it.

[pjf]

Per Dr. Joshi's website, the Phoenix 14K DE lamp that you tout as a "decent setup" doesn't produce much more PPDF than the metal halide setup in Dana Riddle's reviews. In fact, I "cherry-picked" the ballasts to boost the paltry output of your poor Phoenix. You will find that many shielded 250-watt DE lamps are in the same category as the XM20K. That is sobering isn't it, BeanAnimal?

Disparage PPDF as you like. It is the standard measurement of light output in the "Reef Lighting Pages" website (http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/).

Do you agree that “the 75-watt Solaris produced 89.4% of the PAR generated by the 250-watt XM 20,000K lamp” (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/review2#h4)?

A 75-watt Solaris and an 88-watt AquaIllumination in the smallest fixtures are being compared with metal halide lamps rated at 250-watts and above. They are not being compared with 70W, 150W or 175W MH lamps.

What does common sense tell you, BeanAnimal!

Let me repeat my challenge to you and your leguminous petard:

Originally posted by pjf
Well... post your sources and calculations and prove me wrong, Bean.

[pjf]

Originally posted by pjf
I understand that the Aquaillumination LED has even higher efficiency.

Originally posted by GSMguy
not according to PFO, where did you get that?

GSMguy,
AquaIllumination makes the AquaIllumination fixture, not PFO. PFO makes the Solaris. Do we need to repeat that?

Originally posted by GSMguy
Truth is i dont care if you dont understand it, Bean and others has made it so simple to understand 500000 times on 500000000000 threads.

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by pjf
GSMguy,
AquaIllumination makes the AquaIllumination fixture, not PFO. PFO makes the Solaris. Do we need to repeat that?

um no im clear on that, thanks for the offer.

[sherm71tank]

On second thought. Never mind. pjf, you are a real class act.

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by pjf
GSMguy,
AquaIllumination makes the AquaIllumination fixture, not PFO. PFO makes the Solaris. Do we need to repeat that?

Let me elaborate; I had just finished reading PFO comments on their forum where they stated that their new LEDs are the best and AquaIllumination doesn't have access to them.

I know who makes the fixture, I was just Merely pointing out that the manufacturers are saying different things, thanks for assuming my high level of stupidity.


How much time do you spend looking up all this stuff to Cut and Paste?