Angel Fish Aquarium

[Jackc]

Just wondering if anyone has ever kept several large angel fish together in the same tank. I am looking to keep several different species together in a 500. I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to how I should introduce them.

This is what I would like to keep together in a 500.

1 9" Blue Face Angel (Pomacanthus xanthometopon)
1 7.5" Queen Angel (Holacanthus ciliaris)
1 8.5" Annularis Angel (Pomacanthus annularis)
1 7" Chrysurus Angel (Pomacanthuas chrysurus)
1 8" Emperor Angel (Pomacanthus imperator)
1 10" Blue Line Angel (Chaetodontoplus septentrionalis)
1 4-6" Conspiculatus Angel (chaetodontoplus conspicillatus)

I have all of these fish in holding tanks except for the Conspiculatus. Currently looking for a Conspic and if anyone knows where I could find one at a reasonable price (under 1500) please let me know.

Thanks

Jack C.

[DamnPepShrimp]

It's doable I'd say. Every fish is different. I've gone outside the box and kept multiple angels in the same tank. I used to have a 6" grey, 4.5" emperor, and a 3" queen in a 125g. All was fine, emperor and queen were best buds, the emperor was the boss and sometimes chased the grey, but no major harm. Right now I have a 6" passer with a 3" emperor. The passer is the boss, but again, no major harm. I plan on getting one or two more large angels for my 360g, a blueface and maybe a queen or blue, still up in the air, I really like blue rings and 6 bars as well. What is the dimensions of the tank? What order are you going to add them in? I think lots of feedings and a care eye on the fish/tank/parameters is a major key. Good luck, keep us updated, I am very interested in how this turns out.

[jmccown]

That sounds like a really nice tank. Honestly I don't see why not. If you've seen some of the Chinese/Japanese tanks they really load their tanks down with far more angels than that. I'd say go for it. That's a big tank.

POST UP SOME PROGRESS PICS AS YOU ADD THEM.

[ccampbell57]

Jack -

I have a contact that can get you a Conspic. Angel for under $1500. They are coming in at the end of the month.

Send me a PM with your email and what size you want.

[Jackc]

I just saw a auction for Conspiculatus angels on E>>>.com. They look like they are reasonably priced. Dose anyone know if this is a legitimate auction. Has anyone ever dealt with this person before.

Jack C.

[LargeAngels]

I think you will be OK. Although it sometimes depends on the personality of the fish. Keeping them seperated and then adding at the same time is what I did for this 300 with no problems. I stay away from maculousus and passers.

[mattsilvester]

Jackc,

Do some research on Wayne Shang's tank ..... he's got quite a few angels in his tank, like what you are describing. Whilst I personally do not agree with the practice, it can be done, providing a few basic rules of thumb are adhered to.

Alot of folks that have done this, are operating on the same principle as a Malawi Chiclid Tank..... basically crowding them to the extent that any one fish never has the opertunity to establish a territory, which means it does not try to defend it. This is where I disagree with the "method" in principle personally, but none the less it appears to work.

From those I have chatted with about this practice, three things are key to sucess:
(1) Heavy, regular, multiple feedings.
(2) Heavy skimming and over sized filteration systems couple of heavy chemical filteration and alot of water changes.
(3) A decent sized, mature, ready to go hospital / quarantine / "prison" tank for when (note I do not say "if") things go wrong..... i.e. to remove any fish which becomes a exception bully, or is not tough enough to handle the pace.

Of these three criteria, I think most people tend to fail on item 3. They want fish, they are willing to feed heavily, but simply are not willing to keep up the maintenance both because of time comitments and cost reasons..... On a 500 gallon, heavily fed angel tank I would be expecting to use a 200 gal drum of salt on a monthly basis....... and you really need a large skimmer...... and by that I mean something like a deltec that is rated for like 2000 gals or something......

This should enable you to create a large, colourful,impressive display..... not the reason I am in the hobby personally, but everyone to their own

HTH

[TitoTee]

Unfortunately - and I don't know if I'm even right to use the word "unfortunate" here. But, unfortunately, most people are in the Marine hobby for the colors and that goes from corals to fish. Many of us come from freshwater. The fresh water fish and tanks are just not as colorful as the marine tanks.

[mattsilvester]

TitoTee,

I know what you mean about how appropriate the word "unfortunately" is or isn't.

I too came from freshwater...... I converted my 7' chiclid tank to a marine FO, about 10yrs ago. My original list had at the top of it an emporer angel, a queen angel and a majestic angel...... and these were why I got into the hobby - and it was mainly because of the beautiful colours.

Some people develop an interest past the colours - and while the colours remain important, they are less so for me. I will not deny that I chose my current emporer angel in part for his potential colours. BUT, I think the queen angel or majestic angel is better looking....... I just do not think they have as good a character as the emporer..... personal preference though I would prefer a maculosus than a queen or majestic - again because of its character, not its looks.......

In my experience, when you put multiple angels in the same tank, they behave differently, and are not as interesting to observe and watch...... I have tried it, and prefer one to a tank, perosnally. For me, the ponit of an angelfish is its character, not its colour........ the colours are just a bonus. Now I'm not trying to pretend that angelfish would hold as much charm for me if they were not as colourful...... but given the choice of a couple of colourful display fish, OR a single centre piece fish, I would prefer the single fish..... personally.....

I dunno if that makes myself any more clear or not? As I say, each to their own.

[TitoTee]

mattsilvester - you make a very good point! And since you speak from experience that is even better - I value an experience of a person rather than a textbook answer. So many people love to provide textbook answers in forum as if they are the only person that can read LOL

I have an Annularis Angel in my tank and plan on keeping him alone (the only large angel in the tank).

[DamnPepShrimp]

Well Matt, each has their own opinons and experiences. I have had multiple angels in one tank before and had great results. I had a grey, emperor and queen. I've witnessed all of them in their own tank at one point in time and they had great personality, especially the gray, the least colorful of the bunch. When I put them into the same tank, the emperor and queen because the best of buds, and their personality grew tremendously. The gray's personality grew as well to get my attention more since he had competetion from the emperor and queen, he was a very personable fish, as were the other two.

I don't see a problem keeping multiple angels in the tank, as long as they don't fight and you have the space/filtration for them. People keep multiple tangs in their reef tanks, what's the difference? Tangs can be just as territorial if not more then angels! I have a 6" passer angel and a 3" emperor angel in my 110g, along with a 4" purple tang and a 4" chocolate tang. All the fish get along fine, there was some confrontation the first day, but that is expected, fish, just like most animals establish a pecking order.

So bottom line, every fish is different, therefore every situation is different. There is no right or wrong answer (within reason), and usually you never know until you try.

[TitoTee]

DamnPepShrimp - I've heard of stories like yours before. I think it's a matter of personal preference.

What really turns me off about Forums including this one is when people try to make rules. And then hurl thunder and lightning at you for not following them. Or, when people say it's unfair to the fish. Unfair to the fish! Taking them out of the ocean is unfair!! LOL

What...they didn't see Finding Nemo? LOL

It's the "Purist" movement - and it is not exclusive to Marine fish - you find it in the Cichlid World as well.

Beware the Purist LOL

[mattsilvester]

The way I see it is you'd go to church (or whereever your place of worship may be)..... we all know its not fair taking them out of the ocean.... its less fair putting them together.... its less fair not feeding them properly.... etc. etc. ..... everyone has their own personal moral limit, where things are exceptable to them or not...... It's not fair to get a dog and not walk it - its not to say its cruel, or that you don't love the animal....... but its not 100% ideal.... but neither is it 100% ideal to lock the animal up for 8hrs a day, even if you do walk it..... you can argue it should be left out in the yard all day..... then you can argue it should on a farm......

The entire hobby is realy just a compromise - folks can argue about how rightreous they are, or are not, but the second you go into a shop and buy a fish like an angel, you are wrong, and from that point on you (we all) are perpetually trying to make it right by doing what we feel is "our best" to eleveate the guilt.......
Everyone can gauage what your "best" is..... for me its providing a home with a minimum of stress to a the point where I am not wasting my time and money.... I am comfortable knowing that I cannot really do much more for the fish I choose, and I aim to provide more than the recommended minimum..... and to be heonst I think that my fish tend to do a little bit better than average...... and I tend to recommend that others would follow this path...... why? Mainly because it lets a much larger margin for error....... it really is hard to go wrong.... but if you push the boundaries, unless you are dilligent in your care for the animals you will at some point become "unstuck" and the disaster will be recorded as a "mysterious death".

I don't believe in telling people they are worng because they disagree with me. If people are wrong and they know it, well I'm hardly going to change their minds, so there is no point in wasting time agruing - if people are wrong through ignorance, well the best solution to ignorance is education..... I try my best to judge which of these three catagories people are in - and then repsond accordingly ........... hopefulyl I've got the balance right here.

In conclusion, as previous, if you are up to the challenge, and are going into it eyes open, and realise what is needed for long term sucess and you think you arecapable of doing what is needed, then I say go for it....... even it is not not how I would "choose" to keep angelfish and it is not how I would "choose" to use a 500 gal FOWLR tank....... but I don't think your wrong doing it, so long as you do it right

Good luck - Matt

[mattsilvester]

PS. yes, it annoys me too when some (well meaning) guy with little or no RELEVENT experience lectures others on what they should do, because they have read it...... we all draw on "read" knowledge when offering advice, but that shouldbe backed up by at experience that is at least tangible.......

[TitoTee]

Matt - very well said both responses - you sound like me! LOL

[virginiabreeze6]

Matt, you are very correct...If you search the history and relevance to some of the above mentioned post you will find them to be very short term in regards to their experience. I have followed several of his threads to realize that it comes only from short term success.

I too have had several Angels as you know, but long term it does extremely effect their natural behaviour.

[lesleybird]

I recommend the book "Angelfish and Butterflies" by Scott W. Michael. Got mine used from Amazon.com under books section.
I love large angels and have a Majestic and a Scribbled in my 190 gallon. I just ordered a Regal to go in there too. The book mentioned talks about mixing large angels. You should not have a problem in a large tank like yours. It says to add the smaller and least aggressive types first, and the most aggressive last.

The queen is in the most aggressive/territorial groups so even though she is not the smallest I would put her in near the end. The least aggressive group that you have is the Chaetodontoplus according to the book. The Pomacanthus group which has the Emperor, Blueface and the Majestic etc. is a medium aggressive group. Ideally all the fish should go in at the same time for the least aggression, but because of the bioload issue of the new tank it may not be wise either. I would add them in a few at a time, and maybe put the Chaetodontoplus in first with the Blue face the least aggressive of his group that you are putting in, followed by the other other Pomacanthus put in a couple at a time
. Good luck, and make sure you have a big skimmer and a large UV with a slow flow rate to protect your beautiful expensive new fish from ich. Most of the large angels that I have had have not been too ich prone, and recovered from it, but you don't want to mess with it in a 500 gallon. Did you see all the beautiful large angels together in the tank of the month? Lesley

[virginiabreeze6]

The Angels in the TOTM are in no comparison, in regards to aggression, to the list given above.

How long have you had you 190 up and running? The Angels you have are beautiful, but are certainly not Holacanthus in terms of aggression.

Just my HO

[mattsilvester]

I would refer you all to a very favourite quote from an author whom I believe to be one of the true "authorities" on marine fish in the captive aquarium (Mr. Bob Fenner):

(The Conscientious Marine Aquariust - in reference to angelfish P249):
"Bear in mind, however, that many articales and books in this field are authored and edited by those who have limited exposure to the real world of home-scale aquarium keeping. Many of them have large, complicated facilities that are beyond the budgets, or even the dreams, of most hobbyists. Some writers are sucesful collectors and intermediate dealers who don't know much about maintaining an end user or holding livestock for more than a week. Other writers can be hobbyists, divers, and retail workers who think that they have seen it all after having a brush with a few specimens.
Their opinions, as well as my own, should be taken with a bag of salt - not a grain. Before plunking down your hard earned cash, try to ivestigate through reading and talking with people who have years of first hand experience".

From a man with the lifes' experience which the like of most folks can only begin to contimplate, those words are indeed humbling, and it is the guide stick from which I gauge all my decisions in this hobby.......

Matt

[TitoTee]

Before plunking down your hard earned cash, try to ivestigate through reading and talking with people who have years of first hand experience"

This is my creed when it comes to fish keeping. I have posted in many sites marine and cichlids and honestly - I only want experienced answers - nothing better than experience. That's also why sometimes we also have to try something new that may be in our gut - sometimes the gut is right.

[lesleybird]

Originally posted by virginiabreeze6
The Angels in the TOTM are in no comparison, in regards to aggression, to the list given above.

How long have you had you 190 up and running? The Angels you have are beautiful, but are certainly not Holacanthus in terms of aggression.

Just my HO

Hi, I have had the 190 up for about 5 months. Lesley

[JazzZero]

Well ok, the success of your tank is very dependant on the order you put the fish into the tank.

1st option: depending on aggressiveness
first off all lights then put 1 each day or 12 hours
first put
1 8" Emperor Angel
1 4-6" Conspiculatus Angel
1 7" Chrysurus Angel
1 7.5" Queen Angel
1 9" Blue Face Angel
1 8.5" Annularis Angel
1 10" Blue Line Angel

option 2: base on size
put an hour a part
smallest to biggest

option 3:Off all lights and put all at once

option 4: do anything you want

the order of the options are from the best to the worst.

[mattsilvester]

I think your order of introduction, and more importantly rate of introduction will depend largely on two things, in my opinion:

1. The "life support" system for the tank, and the contingencies available to you should things not work out as planned

2. The size of the fish

Since you largely know most of the details which will effect these variables, then you are half way there. You have the fish in "holding tanks" already - which means to say you good mature filters and water already, and you have the facilities to isolate ALL of them, if need be.

So this largely lets the question of how you are looking to set up the "system". i.e. is it fowlr or something like wet/dry filter? Skimmer? How mature will the system be, or indeed the components that make it up?

I think the ideal solution is to introduce everything at the same time...... or similar to the steps set out in JazzZero's reply..... but the details of the system will gouvern how feasible that is, in my view.....