is one week for shipment of LR too long?

stingers81 · #1 01/10/2006, 02:21 PM

hi guys
quick question
do you think LR that has been in mail for over a week will still be ok or do you think it'll be dead by then?
my shipment has been delayed and its been one week now....is that too long???
thanks

Johnsteph10 · #2 01/10/2006, 02:24 PM

That is pretty long - the cold/cooler weather may help some but don't expect a whole lot of life left.

Travis L. Stevens · #3 01/10/2006, 02:32 PM

I would ask for a refund

King-Kong · #4 01/10/2006, 02:41 PM

Dont tell the rest of these guys the transport time of their fiji rock!

Ask for a full refund, 100%. If you're lucky, you can keep the rock. If this is infact the case, cook the rock. You will have great rock slightly above base in quality.

Dubbin1 · #5 01/10/2006, 02:55 PM

Get a refund!!!

Airman · #6 01/10/2006, 02:59 PM

Cook the rock and use it. Don't ask for a refund. Shipping is part of not getting rock from a local fish store.

stingers81 · #7 01/10/2006, 03:02 PM

how long does it take to cook the rock?

Travis L. Stevens · #8 01/10/2006, 03:05 PM

cooking rock....it can be months....

Are you just now getting a tank set up?

stingers81 · #9 01/10/2006, 03:08 PM

yes...i just got the tank set up and i was going to cycle it with the LR that i am yet to receive
I was going to get 30lbs of base rock and seed it with this one....will it be ok to use the delayed LR as base and get a new fresh box of LR and seed it with that....if so....i would just ask the guy to refund me the amount that it would cost me to buy base rock
what do you think?
thanks for the replies by the way

Sindjin · #10 01/10/2006, 03:11 PM

Cook the rock. Basically you're Curing it in total darkness for 3 or 4 months. this allows all algaes to die off and your live rock to expell all built up detritus from inside itself while cycling.

Lordhelmet · #11 01/10/2006, 03:14 PM

King Kong has the best answer. ask for a full 100% refund. and if you keep the "dead" live rock. cook it in your garage for a few months while the other stuff is in your main tank. in april or may you'll have some nice live rock that you can put in your tank or sell and make back your LR cost.

stingers81 · #12 01/10/2006, 03:22 PM

if i get the LR tomorrow (8 days since shipped)....what would you say the odds are that it'll be ok to put it in my tank???
the sent rock was cured and blanketed with wet paper towels and sealed in plastic bag

supposedly he sent the same rock that took 5 days to NY and it was fine...

stingers81 · #13 01/10/2006, 03:25 PM

by the way....the tank is yet to be cycled so there is no livestock in there...just sand and water right now

stingers81 · #14 01/10/2006, 04:06 PM

^

Pandora · #15 01/10/2006, 04:16 PM

There will be quite a bit of death, but what will it really matter if there is nothing live in the tank right now? If the LR you ordered was cured, then there was no real expectation for lots of critters anyway. I think going through getting a full refund will be a lot of hassle, especially if you have to return mail anything, but partial refund, maybe, esp if there was some guarantee.

stingers81 · #16 01/10/2006, 05:12 PM

so do you think it'll still be ok to cycle the tank with this rock????

Pandora · #17 01/10/2006, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stingers81
so do you think it'll still be ok to cycle the tank with this rock????

Yes, why not? Goal of a cycle is to start off with ammonia and gradually build a population of bacteria that will convert it. In cured LR that has been sitting (basically "recuring"), you will have have enough of the former. The only concern of high amm levels would be if you had a cycling tank already with life that you didn't want to damage.

G_cuvier · #18 01/10/2006, 05:58 PM

Here we go again.... another mantra.....

Why is "everyone" recommending that he cook the rock??????

Let's all sit back and think this through shall we.....

Presumably the vendor has sold him LR that is cured or uncured, (it matters not which). Presumably the vendor did not send it in a glass box thus letting in lot's of light - assuming of course that the shipper has it permanently lit which is unusual in the transportation business - it puts up the costs considerably. Another possibility is that the vendor, the nice guy that he is, slipped a battery operated light into the box - but that would be a pretty unique vendor IMO. Both of my suggestions are about a probable as algae growing in an enclosed box in transit in 8 days where there is no water to move the nutrients algae like around and present it in an acceptable fashion for the said algae. Thus, comments like this:-

Quote:

this allows all algaes to die off

do nothing but confuse readers who don't yet understand the natural processes that take place.

Now let's look at the cooking part that most of you have suggested as _the_ or a partial solution to this poor gentleman's problem....

Cooking rock is a process where one leaches the built up undesirable nutrients from LR that have built up during an extended period in a aquarium out of the rock by keeping it in the dark and constantly changing the water so that the concentration of the nutrients are constantly lower in the water than they are in the rock. Before you mantra oriented chaps and "chapesses" say anything.... If cooking your LR was "normal" practice upon delivery why doesn't everyone do it _all_ the time... Did you do it when your overnight shipped LR arrived on time? Of course not... But that's not the end of it, unfortunately.... Since the vendor, presumably, isn't selling LR that has been sat in someone's aquarium for a year or more I fail to see where the massive build-up of undesirable nutrients came from in an eight day old box with no water to move said nutrients deep into the rock.....

So, cooking this rock is going to do no good... period.... In fact it will do much more harm than good... Why?

Lesson One for the "cook the rock" mantra repeaters:-

Make two, very reasonable assumptions:

1. The rock the vendor sold was not sat in an aquarium long enough for significant levels of undesirable nutrients to build up... Fair, right?

2. The rock the vendor shipped was not exposed to light during the eight days and therefore there was no significant algae growth - remember, you cook your rocks in darkness to avoid the growth of algae. Fair, right?

Ok, that's out of the way. So, what do we have here? Well, we have some LR that has been shipped and delayed. It was probably good rock and appears to have been shipped properly. However, the delay will have caused some significant die off.... Hold on one minute there Batman.... What did I say? There's been die off.... OMG... Panic... Oh, hang on... Every time LR is shipped there is some die off.... Now, what do we do with our LR when it arrives normally... Oh, I remember, I put it in my tank and allow it to cycle if my tank is in the state that the original poster's tank is. Why do I allow it to "cycle"? Because I have to let all that dead stuff to rot that will produce the raised NH4 and NO2 and for the appropriate levels of bacteria that can clean the NH4 and NO2 out of the water to build to the appropriate levels... Damn, yes, now I'm beginning to remember the basics... That's all it is.... Pretty simple really....

So, to the OP, (Original Poster), put the rock in your tank and leave it dark for while while monitoring NH4 and NO2 levels and making appropriate water changes if they get too high. You can speed this process by carefully smelling each piece of rock carefully before you put it into your aquarium - be careful if you don't have a strong stomach - some of this stuff can be _really_ stinky. If you find a really bad smelling piece use your nose to determine what _exactly_ is the cause of the smell and remove it before introducing the rock to the tank. When your NH4 and NO2 levels reduce to zero test the NO3 levels - they will probably be high - change as much water as is necessary to reduce the NO3 concentration below 20, preferably below 10 and turn on the lights. You'll be fine - though I would ask for some kind of refund from the vendor simply because the LR you received is certainly not going to have the diversity of life it did when the shipper picked it up. Don't be bothering the shipper - you will have more fun banging your head against the corner of your tank.

To the Mantra Repeaters:

It's all very well to have a mantra.... Don't shoot yourself in the head with your own gun is a good one.... But there are two things you need to know about mantras:-

1. They usually have a religious "quality" which means they are repeated whenever there is ignorance or doubt. This does not make them right in every situation. They may be right in some cases but those circumstances are usually very limited. DO NOT repeat them unless you are _sure_ they are benficial.

2. Not all mantras are true..... Check them and understand the basic principles behind them. If they do not "pan out" or they don't have the science behind them that they claim to have then refer to point 1.

Kids, stop repeating things that are not appropriate for the situation just so you can hear yourself type. Look how many of you prior to this post recommended cooking the rock which will kill even more than the delayed delivery did..... If you haven't researched the science and nature behind your mantra from _independent_ sources and understood it completely then quit spouting it.... because you simply don't know whether it is appropriate for the situation and what is bad about that is you are killing more than you save and you are giving bad advice to people who are trusting you...... Get it?

To the Mods:

Yes, I can be a little abrasive. But if this site is about helping aquarists to better care for their livestock, for them to understand the processes in their aquariums and for their livestock to have a chance to survive then this constant repetition of arbitrary "rules" by people who don't seem to understand them or care to investigate them for themselves is detrimental to the hobby as a whole. The bad advice that is continually given here needs to be challenged since it harms our hobby..... I can understand people making mistakes but I cannot understand why you allow a whole threadful of people to give bad advice because it uses a cute and trendy term, (cooking), to remain on the board.

Pandora · #19 01/10/2006, 06:07 PM

G, didn't I say the same thing in about 20 paragraphs less? :P

MAreefer1 · #20 01/10/2006, 06:10 PM

i would get a refund...they might let you keep the rock too

G_cuvier · #21 01/10/2006, 06:30 PM

Pandora:

Yes, you did.... Quite eloquently too.....

What I'm getting a little fed up with is all these people are simply repeating stuff because it sounds "cool" with no idea why it might be "cool" and, worse yet it is often detrimental to either the livestock in people's tanks or those people's level of knowledge because the advice is bad in the first place.

RC is one of the biggest reef/aquarium BBS's on the net... It's a shame that they are allowing rubbish to spread worldwide because this misinformation is allowed to be consistently posted without challenge.

The information here _should_ be:-

1. Opinion - if there are multiple ways of doing the same thing. But this should not be presented as fact.

2. Fact - insofar as it is based _solidly_ in science, nature and common sense.

3. A suggestion. ie: you think it might work but you "disclaim" that by stating up front that your suggestion is based, not on fact, common sense or science but on a "gut feeling" or anecdotal information.

Anything other than that degrades this site, the information on it or the ability of others to get the information they actually need... Which is wrong.

Treg · #22 01/10/2006, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stingers81
yes...i just got the tank set up and i was going to cycle it with the LR that i am yet to receive
I was going to get 30lbs of base rock and seed it with this one....will it be ok to use the delayed LR as base and get a new fresh box of LR and seed it with that....if so....i would just ask the guy to refund me the amount that it would cost me to buy base rock
what do you think?
thanks for the replies by the way

That it what I would do. 100% refund is asking quit a bit. You should be able to get it at cost and the seller should be able to get you a refund on the shipping amount. Even decent base rock is $2/lb. I would think a partial refund shouldnt be an issue.

I would use that as my base rock and seed with some fresh LR. But I would also cure it in the tank with out lights (so no algae bloom) for an extended amount of time to remove all of the Detritus, PO4 and NO3 from the decay. 6-8 weeks I'd say, atleast 4. Should not need to cook new LR for a full 4-6 months.

I've got some new LR "curing in the dark" (right in my display) going on 6 weeks now. Its getting close to being ready for lights.
Its about 80% clean by looks but still pulling out a decent amount of skim and testing a little high for nitrates.

Pandora · #23 01/10/2006, 06:37 PM

G: heh, I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist! I think we are actually in agreement about the substance of your statements. Maybe I'm just cynical, but I think most people here stop reading after the first 2 sentences if it isn't a simple answer, which so very few things are... like how many times do you see detailed explanations of reef chemistry glossed over, and then the OP posts a response: "Uh, ok, so does that mean I can get the 10 tangs or not."

I do agree on the knee jerk repeating of mantras thing. Have to step back and think of the "why" in each case.

King-Kong · #24 01/10/2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by G_cuvier
words...

For such a long-winded post ranting about how rock "cookers" are wrong, you sure come off as being wrong in guessing why it is suggested.

Also, I rather enjoy your theory on "if its so good, why doesn't everyone do it", in regards to a hobby that goes through significant theory shifts every decade.

Rock cooking theory deserves far more attention and merit regardless of whether you run a BB or a DSB, and I'm quite sure that if DSB'ers began their tanks by cooking their rock, the lifespan of an untouched DSB would extend a great deal. That is neither here nor there, however.

It's quite obvious that his rock has undergone severe stress resulting in severe die off. I propose he cook the rock outside of his display tank to spare him unnecessary work in trying to deal with outrageous diatom and nuissance algae problems.

I wish I had done the same for my tank.

stingers81 · #25 01/10/2006, 10:34 PM

wow
thanks for the info....
one more question
I will wait until the rock gets here to see what condition the rock is in
if its somewhat decent...I will put it in the tank and start the cycle
I will then get about 30lbs of LR from my lfs....my question is....Do i wait until the delayed LR cures or just put in the new LR with the decaying one???
thanks again...and hope we all get along