LED - Everything you want to know

[Bobson]

After reading so many threads which end up in stupid argument and debate about things that go totally off track, i thought i would share some thoughts, as someone who has worked in and around the lighting industry.

I think most people loose track of the fact that:

1. LED LAMPS are made by estabilished companies and the testing required to achieve the 50,000 hour rating is very stringent. Vast amount of independant testing is carried out, on the life cyle of these productts, that must be submitted before any manufacturer of the LED lamp can claim lifecycle of the lamp. These quoted figures are not figures due to the hard work of PFO or AquaIllumination. They are from the manufacturers of the LAMPS companies such as GE, Philips, etc.

2. LED lighting technology is advancing exponentially, year on year. LED application can be seen in all sorts of industries now, you only have to look at the lastest model of automotive vehicles to see how LEDs are incorporated more and more, in vehicle lighting, yet a few years ago they were used only for simple internal display lighting. Now they are replacing high output lighting such as brake , or HID replacements. Contrary to what some people seem to think. LEDs were not just designed to help you replace your MH in your setup it is a very large and vastly growing lighting market segment.

The advances in the technology is not down to PFO or AI it is down to huge R & D by the actual lamp manufacturers such as companies like philips, osram, etc.
The advances you see in fixtures such as the PFO solaris are not down to PFO doing something magical but down to the fact that each release has just replaced lamps with the lastest release of LED lamps in the market.

Thier application in the devices is really all that matters, and the ability of the relevant device to change, adapt and accommodate the lastest LED lamp technology as it happens.

The worst thing that could possibly happen, is to purchase any unit for $2500.00 that is upgradable (as both the solaris and AI units are) only for a company such as Philips to decide the new most advanced wave of LED lamps require a new form factor, and therefore thier ability to work with older devices/lighting units, is void, as it would be akin to fitting a square peg into a round hole.

I would much rather like to see people who have switched from MH and T5 show me some before and afters over the time they have had the devices so i can see:

1. How they mature over time - effecting fish and corals

2. How they provide coverage - spread and also water depth penetration.

3. How the programmable features - daylight, sunrise, cloud cover, lunar and other such cycles - are these giving more of a ease to running the hobby and also are the fish / corals acting happier? or more natural? mating , spawning, growth , etc?

4. Last and by no means least i would simply say it is stupid to discuss if LEDs are more energy efficient - they simply are full stop, there is a multi billion dollar lighting industry with experts carrying out huge energy audits that has confirmed this without any room for debate. Now if that saving for you will equate to 5% or 40% will depend on your individual needs and situation (how many lamp changes you do a year, how long you leave the lamps on daily, if you require cooling etc..)

Summing everything up i think it would be nicer to see discussion about people talking about the quality of light produced via LED in relation to your tank environment.

Thanks
Look forward to reading some thoughts and views from people who are making the switch or that have made the switch regardless of what company/unit you are using.

[invincible569]

Good post. I only use my red and blue LED spotlights for accenting coral colors on pinks and blues.

The thing I never understood is why a PFO LED light costs so much.

[Bobson]

Well i would be interested to know how most LED units will deal with the issues of red and green light issues, as from reading various forums it does appear there is a lack of information addressing this issue.

I believe the issue of cost is simply that in most cases ALL of the new age LED lamps are very much sought after and in demand. Demand heavily out strips supply. Therefore manufacturers demand a premium for these.
This is then passed along the line to consumers, then its up to the Light unit manufacturer in terms of mark ups and costing on the the rest of the unit.

In all honesty i think most LED lighting unit manufacturers are not bothered about lowering price at present because the demand for there units exsists as it is, whilst thier ability to fullfil that demand to saturation is very low, due to the availability of the LED lamps. When the LED lamps become more abundant i would expect the prices to plumet as more and more companies would have a quick and easy route to market, via fast trial and error R&D.

Its just my opinion

[invincible569]

bobson, can you go into detail on the lack of information you are reading?

I have been getting the feeling that most full blown LED fixtures are not suitable for the coral applications a reef hobbyists wants to get into. Yes, its sufficient, but it doesnt give a person who wants to get into SPS its full growth potential. What seems to work is to use LED's as supplemental and not your main source of food for photosynthesis to a reef aquarium in need of high light penetration.

[Bobson]

I am just reading as many sources as i can find at present, i am hoping we can get someone who is actually using these fixtures on here, to show us some pictures and comment on life with led's for things such as SPS and general usage.

There seems too vast a swing in opinions from people stating how perfect they are to how aweful they are. A educated evalution cannot be made without knowing imho.

1. If you like your LED system - Yes or No
2. What is your setup - tank size (length x width x depth)
3. What is your mounting method and how high are the lights mounted
4. What is the comparison you are giving against vs T5 or vs MH
5. If you are using LEDs as supplimental lighting then why do you feel you need to do this and how much other light are you putting into the system etc.
6. What are you trying to potentially grow sps, lps and why do you feel your unit is short of doing this without additional light, or is your unit fine for this?

Thats what at least is going through my mind.

[Bobson]

Nobody on here using or switched to LEDs that wants to help us out with some information and thoughts?

Thanks

[PJsStuff]

I plan on using LEDS on my next tank.

[Pitcom]

If you go to the solaris website there is a link to a test that was conducted comparing LEDS to other sources of light. It showed that LED lights had alot less tank spread than the othe rlights tested with reflectors in use. It also had alot less par at the bottom of the tank.

I'm very interested in LED's for a future tank and the tests conducted looked half decent, but i plan on waiting until they are a bit better IMO.

[hpglow]

I was looking into building my own led fixture. A simple one without all the complicated circuits and what not that could dim at the beginning and end of every day. From doing a bit of research I found that the only led lamps available that could give good enough penetration were some 5 watt Phillips lamps with individual reflectors. The first problem with these lamps was that they cost about $50 each and they were hard to actually find places that had them in stock. The second was that any led lamp over 1w had a greatly shortened life span. So that made me start looking at 1w lamps, but I was going to use a much more dense array of them. 1w lamps are much easier to find, however, there are very few of them in the 10k temp, whereas, the 3 and 5w have plenty of 10k choices. So they would have to be supplemented with some blue and purple. Now keep in mind that all the manufacturers of these lamps use LUX (well that and candella and lumnens) to measure output so I did my best to equate that to par output. But I'm sure that it wasn't exact.

I also looked into hid xenons and other lamps that I had available at work. The problem with the xenons are that they are too expensive still.

I don't know what lamps the current led fixtures use but I think right now were are just on the cusp of this. What I mean is led lamp technology just needs to be a tad better before we will start to see the benefits.

I can't tell you how many reefers in my local area asked me why I was wasting all that time on something like that. "Just put a halide in, they just work." The best halides are only 33% efficient, meaning that the remaining energy escapes as heat. Plus my electric bill went up $30 a month after adding a halide to my tank. I'm building a new tank and a halide will go over it as well. These new leds' are just a tad ahead of their time imo.

The biggest reason why we don't have quantitative data on these fixtures is that there are very few people that want to put down $2k on something that is unproven. The reason that you see so many bash led lighting on these forms is two fold. One part is pure ignorance, and the other is that everyone wants to justify that expensive *** fixture over their tank. (well I guess there is that third type of person, you know the one that would get socked in the head if he acted in public the same way he acted on here.)

[chrissreef]

my issue is my tank is an odd shape so i would need 3 LED fixtures - each at $2k =(

I can buy a lot of MH bulbs/electricity for $6k and I won't have to worry about the technology not having replacement LED's in 3-5 yrs (when their warranty is no longer active)

[Bobson]

Yes i think that people also cost out LEDs differently when they think about them
unlike MH units where they cost the unit then + extra for lamps

with LEDs they tend to just look at the overall price and its higher.

Especially like you say if you have a odd shape tank or coverage issues.

Still nobody with LED units replied yet, considering they have sold enough to start a 3rd series in some cases and there are waiting lists you would think someone would have one to talk about

[robertifly]

I have a Solaris 36" unit on a custom 90gal tank (36"x24"x24") I didn't respond until now hoping someone more qualified than I would. But I'll try and tell you what I know, however I can't tell you how it compares to other lighting since this is the only light I've had on the tank. I put water, sand and rock into the tank 1 yr ago next month with cured aragonite sand and cured lr from a display tank in the lfs which was closing down.
I think I have had pretty good success, some better than others and being pretty much a novice with it I can't be sure if the light is at fault or other thing. But here goes:
1. If you like your LED system - Yes or No (YES)
2. What is your setup - tank size (length x width x depth) 90gal tank (36"x24"x24")
3. What is your mounting method and how high are the lights mounted THEY ARE ON THE LEGS FURNISHED
4. What is the comparison you are giving against vs T5 or vs MH CAN'T BECAUSE NO PRIOR EXPERIENCE W/MENTIONED LIGHTS
5. If you are using LEDs as supplemental lighting then why do you feel you need to do this and how much other light are you putting into the system etc. ONLY LIGHT SOURCE
6. What are you trying to potentially grow sps, lps and why do you feel your unit is short of doing this without additional light, or is your unit fine for this?
1. SPS- SOME ACRO GROWING WELL, ONE DID NOT
2. LPS- OPEN BRAIN DOING NICELY
3. MONTI CAP-OK
4. CLAM-OK
I HAVEN'T ADDED ANY FISH YET.

[Bobson]

Awesome reply Robertifly thats exactly the type of thing i want to see/hear. Any chance if you dont mind posting a pic of how your tank looks under these LEDs please if its not too much bother?

Out of interest how come you choose to jump straight in with just LEDs?

[hahnmeister]

Originally posted by Bobson

4. Last and by no means least i would simply say it is stupid to discuss if LEDs are more energy efficient - they simply are full stop, there is a multi billion dollar lighting industry with experts carrying out huge energy audits that has confirmed this without any room for debate. Now if that saving for you will equate to 5% or 40% will depend on your individual needs and situation (how many lamp changes you do a year, how long you leave the lamps on daily, if you require cooling etc..)

Hate to be the thorn here, but what you said in general is true of any (lighting) technology throughout history... 'things are advancing, things are getting cheaper, etc.'

But the above statement isnt exactly true...


LED's main advantage is their ability to be focused very well. If you are thinking of making replacement LED bulbs for fixtures that radiate light in every direction (like for a ceiling fixture or table lamp), you will be let down by how dull they are.

So your bold statement '...that has confirmed this without any room for debate' isnt really true. Granted, thats from 2006, and R&D has accelerated in huge ways (companies saying they want to break the 200 lumen/watt barrier by 2010), but what we see at a consumer level hasnt gotten there yet. Some of the best units we see are still only in the 60 lumen/watt range... no better than a power compact or VHO bulb. PFO has been getting test samples directly from R&D at the mfg's though... so they have access to the top of the line stuff. The mfg's realize that this small reef-keeping market might be a great testbed for getting the LED technology out there, so they are working together very tightly.

[Bobson]

I hate to disappoint you, in terms of general energy efficiency

1. CFL
2. LED - do remember LEDs come in 2 varieties high/normal output
3. T5
4. MH

Now unless you are going to start using CFLs in your setup, as a general rule of thumb without getting anal is simple, of the 3 feasible technologies to use in our setups LEDs would be the most efficient in energy terms.

Also one thing i would say is the chart is a good guideline, yet is already out of date due simply to the fact that since march 2006, i believe there have been 2 revisions of the major high output LED lamp designs.

Also i think in terms of energy i dont know how other people evaluate it, but i personally im comparing it on a package basis.

Light production + water cooling both being considered concurrently.

Also i would direct you to look at Architectural lighting, type of stuff that is used to highlight large offical buildings, or structures, classically these have been illuminated using MH units and lamps. However there is a vast growth in suitable LED replacement units for this.
I do agree the spread of light is still very focal at present, which is why LEDs units tend to be structured as clusters as opposed to a single row of lamps etc.

But as you put it my friend "my bold statement" holds very true, I would suggest the fact that there are a vast amount of government white papers now advocating the switch from

MH > T5 > LED > CFL in terms of gaining energy efficiency would lead me to understand that we are heading the right way in terms of energy saving.

In an ideal world CFLs that have been designed to retrofit MH fixtures do exsist but the color temps would be inappropriate for usage in aquarium setups.

Out of interest do you run a LED system?

As a side note, due to proposed levies on older lighting technolgies globally, albeit not right at present but proposed to be introduced slowly over time, i think it is in our best interest to plan ahead and look at these options now.

sorry if that sounds a little confrontational.

[Bobson]

An interesting video on LEDs produced by philips is also a interesting watch

http://www.lumileds.com/technology/ll_video.cfm

I think when more of the architectural lighting applications of LEDs start to become adapted to our needs it would be awesome.

An Example of LED architectural lighting

This is a company that specializes in LED replacement technology they have some interesting things to say about

LED vs MH

and

LED in Reef Environment

Both make for a good basic read

[Flint&Eric]

is that with or without reflectors? may want to check those numbers.

many cfl bulbs can be purchased in proper kelvin ratings that fit directly into a medium socket, i have used 65k's as such that draw 95watts and are very intense. a quick search online and you can find many, even in colors such as red and blue.

[Bobson]

Hi,

CFLs that retrofit MH units, require the use of independant ballasts, basically you disable the ballast connected to your MH lighting unit.

This usually makes them a little on the large size for what most aquarium fixtures tend to have.

As an approximation with CFLs you take the stated wattage for example 100W and multiply by 5 for the output (with a well manufactured good quality CFL) So a 100W CFL usually output is equivalent to 500W. Color temps vary alot, but most application usage is made to custom to most requirement when it comes to the large MH / HPS replacements. Also most of these lamps tend to be made as Mogul base units, which i dont think is used very much anymore in aquarium lighting units. One final constraint of doing this, also tends to be the length (MOL) of the lamp and circumference, making them very hard to retrofit for the applications we would use them in, in our setups.


again like with MH and T5 units, CFLs also benefit from the use of reflectors.

[robertifly]

Bobson, I went in with leds for several reasons,
1. Less heat! It's a small room and also didn't want have to buy a chiller, ended up getting one any way when I was running 2 T4's.

2. I liked the package, pretty slick, one stop shopping for lighting.

3. I liked the versatility of programming it your way, canned dawn to dusk programming or just using the timer function.

4. I wanted to start out with "the cutting edge" technology.

I'm not very good with the camera but check out "My Gallery" and you can seem some of my stuff. I just cannot get any good close up pic. I really want to get a Cannon XTI.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

Bobson, I have to take offense to the #4 statement you made about it being stupid to discuss the efficiencies of LED's vs. other lighting. It is by no means stupid to discuss something that is at the core of why we should be looking towards LED's in the first place. Hahn presented very clear and concise evidence for LED's not being as efficient as other light sources. All you've presented for your case is the fact that the industry is moving in that direction. IMO that doesn't really mean much for the here and now. The industry may be moving in that direction simply because they anticipate LED's to overtake everything else in pure efficiency in the future. I don't disagree with that mentality, but I don't see how this proves that LED's are already the most efficient light source out there.

If the high-end LED's are producing upwards of 60 lumens/watt, perhaps they may already be most efficient for reef lighting. The fact that they concentrate the light gives them a an edge over other reef lighting systems, which must use reflectors to get as much light into the tank as possible (and there still is some spill-over). Regardless, my personal concern with LED lighting (after the cost of course) is the spread and the evenness of the light. At the moment, they aren't really a good solution for wide tanks.

Also, when you're talking about CFL do you mean compact fluorescent? I thought compact fluorescents produced about 60lumens/watt, which puts them well behind T5s and MHs in terms of efficiency.

[Flint&Eric]

i don think you were getting the point i was trying to make....CFL's aka PC's are not more efficient than T5's, MH, and new LED's.

CFLs that retrofit MH units, require the use of independant ballasts, basically you disable the ballast connected to your MH lighting unit.

some have internal ballast and can screw into a any household socket. like i said MH>PC's so this wont be hapening.

As an approximation with CFLs you take the stated wattage for example 100W and multiply by 5 for the output (with a well manufactured good quality CFL) So a 100W CFL usually output is equivalent to 500W. Color temps vary alot, but most application usage is made to custom to most requirement when it comes to the large MH / HPS replacements. Also most of these lamps tend to be made as Mogul base units, which i dont think is used very much anymore in aquarium lighting units. One final constraint of doing this, also tends to be the length (MOL) of the lamp and circumference, making them very hard to retrofit for the applications we would use them in, in our setups.

that's just a marketing gimmick and based on incandescents poor lumen/watt output. again not equal to MH or t5... like i said before, they generally are medium based or pin based (PC's)

PC's have been around for years and come in the proper Kelvin. perhaps you shoulld look into them...

again like with MH and T5 units, CFLs also benefit from the use of reflectors

yes but they suffere from re-strike issues due to their design...it's difficult to design a reflector when the bulb looks like spaghetti swirled around a fork

do some more research you're comparing household usage and marketing gimmicks to aquarium lighting. perhaps some more educated reefers on the matter can provide you with the proper info.

happpy reefing

[Bobson]

Aninjaatemyshoe:

I by no means am trying to offend anyone. But simply put the efficiency issue is pointless because:

The rate of change of this T5 and LED technology make them both vastly more efficient than MH, which has a virtually non-exsistent progression rate at present.
Given 8-12 months i think it will be more than likely that LED tech. should push comfortably out infront in terms of energy, so for us to make this an issue of discussion is pointless imho as a basis.

I think everyone appreciates that, also like i mentioned the represented table is very good and useful, however since march 2006 (the date of the table) you will see at least 2 revisions of high power leds. In those 2 revisions vast jumps can be seen. I would ideally love for an LED manufacturer to produce a similar table with current late 2007 lamps compared..

The reason i would deem hahns table as unviable would be that we only need to look at the companies producing LED fixtures already are in 2nd - 3rd revisions of thier products to accommodate the newer lamps.

Also i am not out to prove X Y or Z is already the most anything, i am just trying to gain info/opinion and see results from people who are changing from MH > to anything to be honest, but especially LED as imho i see this progressive the most and having the long term potential (in terms of an industry wide movement)

In terms of reflectors virtually all the lamps we use, use reflectors, in the case of LEDs the reflectors are built into the lamp assembly itself.

I infact whole heartedly agree with you, in terms of the spread of light, i think at present from what we read seems like it is lacking. However i was hoping people actually using the LED units might be able to highlight these issues for us, or actually comment on how good or bad the spread is? If asking such questions is not the right way to try to get feedback on a topic which is clearly of interest to us all, then someone please suggest a good way we can gather this info.

Again i would really love to see/hear from people who are switching from MH / T5 over to LED and thier experience of aformentioned issues.

I was simply commenting on CFL in reply to a question, and CFLs are way more efficient than either MH / HPS / T5 as the technolgy stands at present.

However due to the fact that T5s are the most adaptable and appropriate form of fluorescent lighting for reef lamps due to thier form factor. I would assume this would be why nobody sees mogul based MH/HPS replacement CFLs as a technology worth adapting to reef illumination. simply put the CFL retrofits for these are very large units in size.

I think you can find numerous CFL vs other lighting charts on the net, and i dont think again they would apply to the topic in hand so much.

[Bobson]

Flint:

I am not confusing household usage and aquarium usage, if you read through i think you will see i have mentioned that CFLs have not been adequately adapted for the use in aquariums and hence the focus of discussion would remaind on LEDs

As mentioned in the above post, there are a number of reasons why they are not adapted or in usage.

However that doesnt change the fact that on a lumen basis they are damn efficient light source

it's difficult to design a reflector when the bulb looks like spaghetti swirled around a fork

heh ROFLMAO essentially unwinding the spaghetti leaves you basically a standard t5-esque tube construct, hence not really a great adaption of the technology.

And so next down the line of efficiency we end back up at LED

[KyleO]

Interesting thread!

I am a former MH user that moved to PFO LED as my single light source. I had to take the time to read through this thread before I responded because I have been involved in a few too many LED bashing discussions........

Anyway, I have an AGA 210ga (72x24x30) and have had great success with moving to the 72" H4 PFO unit (400W comparable).

The main reason I moved was that my power consumption was way over the top using (1) 400W 10K and (2) 250W 14K MHs (and the chiller that was running up to 8 hours a day to compensate the heat factor).

My goal was achieved by cutting heat and power consumption dramatically, but the best part is that nothing in my tank suffered from lack of light. I do have SPS, LPS and clams, all completely dependent on lighting that have thrived in the 8 months that my unit has been up and running.

I am not here to slam MH...........I loved my MHs!!! That said, I would have a very difficult time moving back to MH lighting as it cannot even come close to the programmability and adjustments that can be made to the LED unit!

You can completely adjust the color from around 11K up to 20K. You can adjust the color of the moon lighting. You can adjust sun up, sundown, moonrise, moonset, variable cloud cover during the day...........day length, sunrise and sunset time length......same with moonrise and set.......and on and on.

Bottom line for me is that LED lighting is comparable to MH lighting, minus all the draw-backs of MH lighting.

The only downside to LED lighting (IMO) is the obvious (painful) initial investment.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

The CFL's you're talking about must be vastly different from the ones available in the hobby. The ones available are weak and inefficient both in total lumens produced per Watt and from the inability to design good reflectors.