Cleaner and peppermint shrimp rearing project

[MrMikeB]

All,

A couple of us freaks (read: marine enthusiasts), are looking to tackle the nuances of rearing cleaner and peppermint shrimp. I have done quite a bit of research on the subject and feel I am ignorant enough to give it a go. We are building the plans for a spiffy shrimp rearing tank and should have things ready within a couple of weeks with the help of CAD guru Ed Simmons. Why bother you ask? It is a simple desire to build 'sustainable' reefing through aquaculturing - and - because it is going to be a lot of fun. Through my research there are many techniques and "well this one time I had shrimp down in my sump, and..." stories, which are all well and good, but I have not seen something really detailed put together that could be readily repeated with a good degree of success. There is an obvious commercial appeal to this as well, but that is not our goal (yet).

Question:
Is anybody interested in following this? We are very rigid and methodical on our approach and have a very specific goal of producing repeatable steps and tools (and their designs) that would be a culmination of book knowledge and trial and error learned through this exercise. We do not expect the process to occur quickly, and it will more than likely be months before we are even close to having the results we are looking for. I figure this forum would be great in tracking results (w/pics) and soliciting feedback and ideas, but only if you feel it appropriate and worthy a project.

Thanks!

P.S. When the plans are ready, I will have a part list of materials needed so don't toss away your pumps, filters, aerators, etc. just yet! I will be funding the research myself while we continue working on grants for the more inclusive parent project of oceanic world domination (heh ), so please be kind on the $$$.

[jlfnjlf]

Mike,

This is a great project and worthy of the time and effort it is going to take.

I am interested in following this project, and I would be interested in helping if I can.

John

[MrMikeB]

John, much obliged. I did not wish to impose such a project on the forum if it was ill placed and conceived, so I figured I would be cordial and ask first.

When the documentation is all put together along with the specifics regarding the methodology we plan to follow, I would love to get your feedback regarding the approach and any ideas to improve upon it. I figure we are not here to re-invent the mousetrap unnecessarily, just make a better one with real data and tests to back it.

[edsimmons]

Hey MikeB don't forget my emerald crabs-I have 4 female emerald crabs (and one male) that every 1-2 weeks release a cloud of platonic crab larva that quickly get consumed by fish corals an filters .Justin74 has witnessed this event. so if this works for cleaner shrimp we will apply the same techniques to the e crabs. and mod as needed.

[jlfnjlf]

I am far from the voice of the majority, but I think this type of thread is exactly what is needed more on the forum. I see a lot of for sale threads here (and I do buy stuff this way), and Q&A stuff. However not enough of this is what I am thinking all the way to this is what I got.

I would love to see people learning off each other more on this forum. I come to Reef Central to learn from other members.

Thanks,

John

[MrMikeB]

That is indeed the master plan. Many similar species share similar breeding queues and will follow like patterns if given the appropriate conditions. Part of the project will be to understand these queues and conditions that stimulate the breeding cycle in captivity, which is one of the largest hurdles to overcome - getting a creature to attempt procreation in captivity in the first place. Rearing the offspring is obviously just as complicated and I fear there will be much to learn along the way, and many who will not make it as the process and conditions are honed.

[boviac]

Oh Yeah! GREAT! I am all for a more sustainable livestock selection!!! So happy to hear about this, I am very interested in the topic, and I wish you the best of luck. Currently, I've ventured into culturing Phytoplankton based on Melev's web site.

edsimmons - it would be very cool if you could grow out emerald crabs!!!

[MrMikeB]

I actually approached a couple of the LFS in the area and asked why they do not use aquacultured inverts. The answer, although I am not suggesting it is definitive, was that that their suppliers do not offer them. When they do (and extremely few do), it generally carries a premium pricetag and their customers are just not willing to pay that added cost. This is not unlike many other industries where the cost of the alternative solution far exceeds the appeal of using those alternative sources. So the simple economics is that either the supply dwindles so that the cost rises and now the alternative is feasible, or the alternative is more economical. So the trick, and it is indeed a Houdini, is to pioneer methods that are commercially feasible and responsible at the same time - goals that are generally found at odds with each other.

[boviac]

yup... well said.

[BBishop]

Been studying this topic for many years myself. Weather you succeed or not, I'll be very interested in your results. Aquaculture is the wave of the futher for this hobby. Best of luck to you.

[RAYSTOCKETT]

I have a fiew cleaner shrimp and peppermint that are fluding my tank every other week whith babys. Ive tried many times to raise them to no avail. I would love your input and details of your resurch to help me keep mine alive. And would be willing to loan my pregnant shrimp to the cause.

RICHARD

[pcurry18]

Dammit, you got me HOOK LINE AND SINKER! Im on it like a fat kid on a donut! Let me know how i can help. I could use some ECs anyway, but one male with 4 females...wow, hes gonna have fun. Plus this might be the perfect opportunity for me to video tape some freaky shrimp sex. LOL....Just Kidding. Hurry with the parts list and such. I cant wait to pitch in! Let me know!

[MrMikeB]

Paul, you are scaring me. Ha!

All, I appreciate all your support in this. It is amazing to know we have this type of backing from some great and knowledgeable folks.

Not to be premature, but here is what we have thus far at a very high level view - the actual documentation will be much more in depth and will include our methods for tracking variables and other control details.

1) Logistics - In order to preserve the research environment, the experiments will occur in a controlled location devoid of external stimuli. (Read: my guest house.) We will establish multiple breeding and raising tanks (details to follow) and house them all in this facility with a constant ambient temperature and no external light, noise, etc.

2) Major areas of testing - the following are the main focal points of experimentation. The idea being once we determine optimal conditions at each of these steps, we will be able to build on them to the next phase.

a) Adult shrimp conditions - which conditions are optimal for shrimp health (water quality, food types, living conditions, lighting, lunar cycling, temperature, etc.). The hypothesis being happy parents = happy babies = low mortality rate.

b) Breeding conditions - Same as above, but geared more towards what conditions promote pairing. Is it better to do multiple shrimp families or only pairs, and what size adult shrimp act as the male and which ones the females? - a lot to learn here.

c) Larva harvesting - Methods and techniques that yield low mortality rates in harvesting the larvae once hatched. This will include a detailed study of the hatching process and some video of the birth with nifty night vision lenses when I get them operational - if we can time it right.

d) Larvae raising - probably the most significant and most unknown is the successful rearing of the babies, including testing lighting, diet, water temp and conditions, etc.

3) Food preparation - We will study various mixtures of food and preparation in looking for the right mix of amino acids, fat, vegetation, etc. that promote the healthiest adults and babies. The techniques and food mixtures will be sought that are economically feasible and abundant. (feeding shrimp caviar is not on the list )

4) Environmental conditions - We will study various environmental queues to understand more on how well certain behavior is promoted/discouraged. This could include crowding, noise, lighting (long days, vs. long nights, etc.). It will also include barren aquascapes vs. loaded tanks with ample places to explore and hide.

So as you can see, there is a bit to do. We will use as much already known research to formulate the test plans so as to remain efficient, and track as many details as possible so that we can validate the findings. Should be fun!

[CaliforniaDreamer]

Sounds like a great project and I will look forward to your progress.

BTW Have you read the book on the breeding and training of cleaner shrimp? I don't know the author or the actual title off hand but if you haven't I'll look it up tonight. Also, my understanding is that there are not male and female cleaners, they are both. Right after the molt they will produce eggs and can be fertilized by another shrimp.

[MrMikeB]

California Dreamer,

Yes, I have read through it a couple times if I have the book you are referring to. I have it at home and do not remember the actual title - has a picture of a man using a whip to train the shrimp. A great place to start for some basic and very informal info. You are also correct regarding shrimp sexes. They do not reproduce asexually in that they do require two shrimp to make the romance happen, and are indeed hermaphroditic in that they all are capable of being male and female. Once the 'female' gives birth, she will molt soon after laying eggs, mate again and the process is repeated. This is one of the primary reasons we chose this species to start with, the abundance of potential babies to play with. With an average of 600 eggs per birth, well we should have plenty to care for once we get the process right.

[CaliforniaDreamer]

Originally posted by MrMikeB
California Dreamer,

Yes, I have read through it a couple times if I have the book you are referring to. I have it at home and do not remember the actual title - has a picture of a man using a whip to train the shrimp. A great place to start for some basic and very informal info.

Yes, that is the book I am talking about. After reading it I was also interested in starting a shrimp rearing project, but time is just not available. It is great that I can do it vicariously. As I said before really look forward to reading about your project.

[Justin74]

Indeed! I was thoroughly impressed with Ed's setup and his baby making EC's. Justa awesome boquet of microfauna! And can honestly say Ive never seen swimming EC larva till Ed's tank. I wish you both the best. Even you failed hard on your butts and lost a few hundred to boot this thread will be extremely worthy, thats what this gig is all about. Again the best of luck to you both guys, and thank you in advance for sharing your experiences!

-Justin

[GreshamH]

You should read the threads in the Breeders forum on this very subject. Talk with Spawner (Andy), Luis or Ed

[Fragmented]

I have toyed with the same idea off and on for the last few years. I'm very interested in tagging along. A wonderful addition to the entertainment here.

Maybe you could do a presentation at a MARS meeting to share your experiences in person as well. Sounds like the makings of an interesting meeting.

[MrMikeB]

Awesome! Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions and offers for assistance, I will be sure to exploit them all. Here is the rough timetable we have so far:

February 1 - Finalize project charter, objectives, success criteria, and roles and responsibilities

February 14 - Complete the first draft of project methodology, designs, and approach. Open up RFC to the forum/team for input.

February 28 - Complete the 2nd draft, incorporating feedback and proposed changes to the project via the RFC process (read: posts on the forum)

March 14 - Finalize project documentation and develop materials list and expected budget

April 14 - Complete procurement of needed resources - project begins!

The rest of the project will be determined by the methodology chosen in the planning stage. As you can see, we are hoping a bit of planning goes a long way to producing repeatable steps - which is one of the core goals of the project. Being an IT geek by trade, I will fully web enable much of this so you all can track our progress and actually see what we are doing with pictures and video streams. To fund the research, we will sell popcorn and soda via the website to the masses so the shrimp mating and hatching can be enjoyed by the whole family in luxury. I am confident that once IMAX gets word of this, they will be beating my door down in no time!

Should be fun... in a nerdy kind of way.

[pcurry18]

Mike,

As methodical as you are being on this, there is no chance of failure. It sounds as though you are writing the science on this project. I cant wait to get involved and watch them lil buggers grow. Good work mate! BTW, im a network/IT geek by trade also, so if you need help with that let me know!

[RAYSTOCKETT]

I NOTICED TWO OF MY CLEANERS HAVE EGGS AND ONE OF MY PEPPERMINT SHRIMP AS WELL AS AN AAROW CRAB.
I KNOW WE MIGHT NOT MAKE IT FOR THIS BATCH. I JUST EXCITED THINKING SOON I MIGHT BE ABLE TO KEEP THESE BABIES ALIVE.
RICHARD

[plankton]

Mike,

Funny how great minds think alike.

Here's my writeup on my attempt to do just that back in 2002!

Captive Rearing of Peppermint Shrimp (Lysmata wurdemanni):
A Hobbyist's Tale

Let me know how your attempt goes...

PS I still have my copy of April Krkendoll's "How To Raise & Train Your Peppermint Shrimp" if you want to borrow it.

Scott

[MrMikeB]

Thank you all for your continued support. We are all very excited about this and with ideas, past experience, and support that is found through this group, we will be sure to succeed.

Stay tuned...