Making Chaeto grow more

[seldin]

I have a small HOB Refugium with some live sand, Chaeto and have hang on light, that is on about 10 hours a day with lots of flow.

Since the refugium is small, I started seeing "cr@p or sand or other stuff" stuck in the Chaeto. Seems to be acting like a filter. Is this good. I also heard, that to make Chaeto do well for Nitrates, that it should grow thick.

How thick is too thick where I should trim it back?

My chemicals are fine except my nitrates go from around 10 to 30. So I am trying to measure how well Chaeto will do at lowering my Nitrates to 0.

Thanks much,

[bertoni]

Debris building up on the Chaetomorpha might or might not cause problems. I'd just watch the water nutrient level. My Chaetomorpha tends to start to fade in areas where it's too thick. The growth rate might also drop.

[seldin]

Johathan,

Okay.

I'll keep on top of this.

[Billybeau1]

You can also dose some iron. Just make sure its chelated.

Iron: Macroalgae and dosing recommendations
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

[seldin]

I was thinking of taking the Chaeto out for a minute and trying to shake out the crud in an external bucket with a little salt water.

How does this sound.

[bertoni]

That sounds fine to me.

[demonsp]

You say FO tank. is there LR or any substrate? How big is this tank and how many gallons do you change and how often ?
Do you use unfiltered tap water ?

[seldin]

Originally posted by demonsp
You say FO tank. is there LR or any substrate? How big is this tank and how many gallons do you change and how often ?
Do you use unfiltered tap water ?

Demonsp,

FOWLR 55 gallon saltwater with Arag live sand. That's where the mess is coming from. Well, I actually seeded small refugium with some old live sand from a friend's tank, and got some nice critters. So a lot of sand was raised during the input of live sand to my refugium.

After a few days, I can see my tank is clearing up from the debris and am thinking this may mostly be just the muck that was raised an captured during the initial installation. I do at least 10% water changes 2-3 times a month.

[bergzy]

i have two fuges each growing chaeto.

the first one is a sectioned part of my sump that receives about 900 to 1000gph very dispersed flow. the chaeto is not in its own compartment. the container is an eggcrate box held together by zip ties.

it grows chaeto very slowly as the flow is not very 'fast' through it.


the next fuge is a made from a 5g bucket with chaeto only in there. no rubble, no sand etc.

the flow i have in there is about 600gph directed by a 1/2" nozzle that creates random turbulent non-laminar flow. i started with a golf ball size bundle and it has grown to a basketball in about a week.

the 'flow' gets the chaeto turning as a ball...something that is very important for chaeto's optimal growth.

i also use a 65 watt lights of america 6500k compact flourescent i get from costco for $8.50. works great!!!

here is a pic of another fuge that was getting about 2000gph in a random turbulent flow (note: not violent or this will tear chaeto apart). this one is easier to see th tumbling ball that chaeto likes to be in.



it started from this ball that was brittle and dying due to poor flow, horrid lighting and who knows what else. again, the giant ball took about a week or two to grow out from this starter seed.

[Flint&Eric]

what about the use of dosing N, e.g. kno3, or P, e.g. kpo4, depending on what is limiting in a given system.

for example if no3 is 0 but po4 is .2, by dosing kno3 in the chaeto fuge it should use that N as it's no longer limited and fixate that along with the excess po4, no?

[bergzy]

for me, i wouldnt dose something to try and grow chaeto. i grow the chaeto to remove unwanted nutrients.

so far, i havent come across a situation where the nitrates are zero and phosphates are 0.2 yet.

if that were the case, i would just drop in some bluelife phosphate that flocculates to be removed by the skimmer. i like it better than the ferric based absorbers.

phosphates are usually the limiting factor in macro growth. thus, you will find zero phosphates with some nitrates in your system than the other way around.

[Flint&Eric]

i was just using that as an example, but even if yours is the case then with zero po4, the addition of kpo4 would then induce nitrogen fixation reducing no3....

the poster asked about making chaeto grow more, just sharing is all chaeto can be very useful, and by manipulating N and P even more useful imo. by dosing these you increase the growth of cheato, and further lower nutrient levels. i am not sure of the amount needed to significantly increase K, but a little boost in potassium cant hurt ime...most salts and deficient in it.

[bertoni]

It's possible for N or P to become limiting, and I've seen cases where people dosed nitrate for that reason. It's hard to tell in this case, though.

[seldin]

Originally posted by bergzy

the 'flow' gets the chaeto turning as a ball...something that is very important for chaeto's optimal growth.

Bergzy,

I am using a small HOB refugium. I don't think I have room for the Chaeto to turn on it's own. However, the flow is really high. I actually thought I should be lowering it. Now, I may just leave it alone.

I think it's growing, but I am not sure. I started the refugium only 1 week ago.

[Billybeau1]

Originally posted by bergzy
[B]for me, i wouldnt dose something to try and grow chaeto. ]

It's kinda hard to argue with Randy as he has a little more experience at this stuff than most of us do.

Randy doses iron to help his macro's.

[bergzy]

Originally posted by Billybeau1
It's kinda hard to argue with Randy as he has a little more experience at this stuff than most of us do.

Randy doses iron to help his macro's.

i'll let randy dose iron to grow his macro's! he definitely has more experience than me on this.

iron is tricky to dose (imo) and the kits to test for them have a reputation for being spotty. thus, i dont have any intentions on dosing the stuff. i just dont worry about it and let macro grow on their own as do my reefing friends that i know.

it would be another thing for me to 'dose', think about, worry about and constantly 'test' for. just isnt worth it for me. i try and simplify things to the max. you know like: lay's regular chips, breyers vanilla ice cream and a nice medium rare steak with butter mash potatoes...oh yeah...midnight snack...here i come!!!

[Billybeau1]

[bergzy]

Originally posted by seldin
Bergzy,

I am using a small HOB refugium. I don't think I have room for the Chaeto to turn on it's own. However, the flow is really high. I actually thought I should be lowering it. Now, I may just leave it alone.

I think it's growing, but I am not sure. I started the refugium only 1 week ago.

as long as the flow isnt ripping apart your chaeto...it should be okay. i have had my flow rip apart chaeto due to the fact that the chaeto was brittle and dying in the first place.

the chaeto from my 5g bucket fuges literally take hurricane forces with it easily reaching 120x turnover (600gph+) via a single 1/2" nozzle. i nitially, i keep the flow medium to not break up brittle chaeto but once the chaeto grows into a healthy mass...it is FULL steam ahead!!!

[seldin]

How do I know, when I should trim back Chaeto that may get "too big" for it's container.

In addition, I am trying to see my lower nitrates. When should this kick in.

Thanks much,

[mwitten]

Originally posted by bergzy
i have two fuges each growing chaeto.

the next fuge is a made from a 5g bucket with chaeto only in there. no rubble, no sand etc.

the flow i have in there is about 600gph directed by a 1/2" nozzle that creates random turbulent non-laminar flow. i started with a golf ball size bundle and it has grown to a basketball in about a week.

t

I know this might be hard to do, but do you have any photos of this bucket setup? This sounds like it might be good for my system...

Thanks!

-Mike

[bergzy]

Originally posted by seldin
How do I know, when I should trim back Chaeto that may get "too big" for it's container.

In addition, I am trying to see my lower nitrates. When should this kick in.

Thanks much,

when your chaeto starts growing...your nitrate levels should be decreasing. i rarely test nitrates (maybe twice a year) but if you are in the initial stages of nitrate reduction...i would suggest testing once a week at least...to see any reduction trend.

i trim my chaeto when the center of the ball/mass stops receiving enough light.

people make the common mistake to let the chaeto grow bigger and bigger thinking the bigger the mass...the more stuff they're pulling out. imo, it is the rapid growth of chaeto that removes the nasties...not trying to sustain a large colony of macro (used for export purposes). if the colony/mass gets too big, the center that isnt receiving light dies back and starts to release the nutrients back into the water.

[bergzy]

Originally posted by mwitten
I know this might be hard to do, but do you have any photos of this bucket setup? This sounds like it might be good for my system...

Thanks!

-Mike

here ya go mike.

this was from my 125g fowlr (rip) tank.

the light penetrating through the bucket sides to show how empty it is to start with.


and here it is about 2 weeks later. massive growth mainly because i never do water changes on my 125g office tank...the nitrates were probably through the roof!!!



it takes me about 5 minutes to make my bucket fuge...10 minutes if i feel lazy and slow.

how easy is it?

drill two holes near the top for uniseals (careful, they can leak). leave the top rib of the bucket intact (drill just below it to fit your bulkhead in). this reinforces the bucket and prevents it from bowing out from water pressure/weight.

cut pvc to desired length. glue on some elbows etc. toss eggcrate on top of it and have your fuge light on a reverse timer from your main lights...and you got yourself a killer killer fuge.

this one was powered by a mj 1200. you can easily power it with a quiet one 3000 or even 4000 if your caheto is healthy enough to withstand the turbulence. chaeto is really tough stuff. it is an amazing macro and i use it exclusively for my fuges!

[mwitten]

Thanks for the photos and instructions! I'll put one together this weekend...

-Mike

[shikhyung]

My little chaeto kind small, so I spread them out, like flat bed. Is it ok, or they prefer to be like ball size?

[chris melb]

Ben this is great, i too have cheato and have grown it well when tumbling although this is hard to do, with that much flow in your bucket do you find that cheato can get sucked into the drain pipe, and overflow. Are we able to see some inside bucket shots please ? I too blieve that flow is an important factor for cheato growth but like you said IME im now finding that alot of flow is actually causing it to shed, and this clogging up all the pumps etc.