Making Chaeto grow more - Page 2

bergzy · #26 11/02/2007, 10:39 PM

hi chris,

high flow is possible only when the chaeto is very healthy, in long strands and curled up in a tumbling ball. most fuges encourage it to grow in a sectioned portion of their sump that just receives slow laminar flow. this causes chaeto to grow to fill the container...and i have found that the chaeto strands are weaker and more brittle.

i actually stumbled on the bucket idea because i didnt really have a choice as when i made my first one, my tank was already up and running and i wanted something simple, quick and, by lucky chance, cheap!

how i have my output nozzle is it has a 90 degree elbow and it is directed at a 45 degree angle to the side of the bucket. the jet of water hits the side, is directed to the bottom and comes back up. this sets a circular water pattern that will tumble chaeto.

if just starting out with the bucket idea...start with a small ball of chaeto. almost for sure, if the chaeto is from slow flow fuges, the strands will be thin and brittle. this is where a lot of people just plop this brittle mass into a high flow fuge with nothing but destructive results...and the clogging of pumps as you have seen. been there...done that!

thus, start with a small ball with a slower swirl water current. the swirling will be more gentle on the chaeto ball. as the ball grows, you should notice the chaeto strands becoming thicker, denser and stronger. this is when you can start increasing the flow.

my chaeto ball doesnt get stuck in the drain. to prevent this, you place the drain high enough (same level as input) AND if you can get the ball to spin in the lower part of the bucket. a little trial and error and you will find the perfect angle of the nozzle to do this.

what is the big deal about getting the chaeto to spin? i found that chaeto that sits in fuge sumps, the bottom of the chaeto colony starts to die because it doesnt receive enough flow or light...esp light. thus, what does a spinning ball do? yep, it allows illumination all over the chaeto. there is no bottom. max efficiency of growth. BUT...dont let your ball get to big or the center will not receive enough light.

i light my fuge for 18 hours a day with a lights of america 65w 6500k setup and couldnt be happier with it.

hope this is helpful! i have been using bucket fuges for 4 or 5 years now with nothing but excellent results!!!

chris melb · #27 11/03/2007, 09:59 AM

Thanks Ben this is great a idea, ill see if i can make one up in 5 mins too haha, i think the benefit of using your bucket cheato fuge design is the circular shape of the bucket which helps it ball up nicely like a fairy floss does.

Ive cheato grow well when it was tumbling at something 20x a min, ive also had good growth from laying a matt of cheato on the surface of the water (aprrox 5cm away from the light) and spraying it with micro bubbles from underneath, these micro bubbles help with C02 uptake during photosynthesis, but ive noticed alot of breakage, as you observed as well probably due to lack of current/flow. Ill think ill setup a bucket cheato fuge and spray it with micro bubbles, this should get it growing although i think youve already proved that micro bubbles are not necessary when you have a huge amount of flow.

bergzy · #28 11/03/2007, 10:50 AM

that will be great chris!!!

post a pic of it when you finish it!!!

here is my very first bucket fuge. talk about crude and really no idea what i was doing.

the input was via a clear vinyl hose that went to the bottom of the bucket. note the word 'clear'. this kept gumming up with algae.

next was that i put rubble rock on the bottom. this killed any good circular water action i could be getting.

next the 'chute'. i made this out of a old milk container and,actually, did a really good job as the drain went directly into the return pump. the problem was that the chaeto wasnt 'spinning' as good as it is now and the chute would clog up.

my design has been refined a little (but not too much...just slightly fancier plumbing fixtures) but the overall function has remained the same.

mwitten · #29 11/03/2007, 11:00 AM

Do you use lock-line or anything? You mention a nozzle...

Thanks!

-Mike

bergzy · #30 11/03/2007, 12:37 PM

the nozzle is nothing more than a 90 degree elbow that is tilted about 45 degrees inside the bucket to hit the sides and create a rotational swirl flow.

the chaeto ball is huge right now and brushes the drain pvc in there as it spins. it is actually kind of fun watching this.

i will try and get a picture of this but...

my current set up is that i have the bucket fuge propped and fitted up about 6 six feet into a pvc barrel with about 300 pounds of live rock in there with a fluidized reverse flow. additional circulation is provided by a coralife sl-38 pump percolating air from the bottom up. i have a coralife sl65 (y'know...like the car

) if i want more air...but the sl38 seems adequate right now...plus, it moves a ton of water...and i mean A LOT for 14 watts. it's tough to get a picture of it...but i will try.

some of you are now wondering what is the deal with the barrel full of live rock? yes? well, as i was talking to a pretty innovative reefer...he said he uses a lot of live rock for biofiltration and sponge growth. sponge growth?

ahhhh...sponge growth!!!

sponge growth will utilize any excess silicates in the water. thus, it should decrease any diatom bloom AND if my di resin is running near the end of its life and i haven't been studious in checking and changing it. i already have a ton of sponge growth on the rocks...but that is another thread.

chris melb · #31 11/04/2007, 01:41 AM

OK now took me a bit longer than 5mins, (half the day) but im very happy with this idea, this design is great, cheato contiually spins, does not get caught in anything, actually sits in the centre right under the light.

In Australia, i couldnt get uni seals all that easily, but the bulkheads work fine (make sure the bucket has a bit of flex in the plastic so a good seal is made), i have a 15mm Inlet bulkhead attached to at the moment only running a 1000lph pump, but upgrading to a 1700lph in the next couple of days, the outlet is a 25mm bulkhead, the bucket is a 43litre Bucket so at the moment im currently running half the power and twice the size as Bens setup

And now for some pics

Bulkheads:

Topdown view:

Full Bucket fuge shot (note: the rope handles still attached to the bucket- this is really important for the cheato)

Also here is a one min vid of my cheato setup in action.

Bucket cheato fuge

Great design Ben and thanks for sharing this design.

bergzy · #32 11/04/2007, 02:32 AM

W O W ! ! !

now that is a gorgeous bucket fuge!!!

i can see why it took you more than 5 minutes to make!!!

i took a peek at the video too and it is spinning quite nicely indeed!!!

you'll notice in a week or two that the chaeto strands should start to thicken up, darken up and become more robust!!!

i'll try and take a video of my big ol' spinning ball tomorrow as it it is past midnight here and i am burning a little 'midnight oil'...get it? get it? ha? ha? oh never mind...it's late!!!

chris melb · #33 11/04/2007, 06:37 AM

Haha thanks, i didnt cost much, most of time was spent looking for bits and pieces. Im wondering if the flow is enough though, u can see how fast it is spinning in the vid, be interested to see if yours spins much faster, i hooked up another pump 2,800lph and cheato moved maybe 50% faster i think the 1/2' nozzle is restricting the full force. Im going to leave it like it is for a week and snap some pics to see if i can see good growth, if not ill up the pump. the placement of inlet and drain pipes is good on this, i tried to stuff the cheato ball in the drain pipe and it simply became unstuck with the flow from the inlet pipe, the cheato went back into the middle of the bucket. I cant see it clogging up the drain pipe.

bergzy · #34 11/04/2007, 11:53 AM

the blue barrel is filled to the top with large and medium sized live rock for my sponge biofiltration. you can see the white bucket on the top of the stack. the live rock is also percolated with a large amount of air to circulate the water from the bottom up in addition to the white bucket output goes to the bottom of the barrel.

yeah, my equipment room (garage) is cluttered! i get told this all the time!!!

here is a very short video of the chaeto filling up the 5g bucket and spinning somewhat slowly due to the sheer size of the thing! it spun much faster when it was tiny. note the very dark green color, the tickness of the strands and the tightness of the coiling. good signs of healthy chaeto.

why the big ball when i said to trim it down so the center gets light? i grow it out and give it away to local reefers!

Kenfuzed · #35 11/04/2007, 02:52 PM

OMG Ben, that thing looks like it could swallow up pets and small children if it ever got loose

bergzy · #36 11/04/2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kenfuzed
OMG Ben, that thing looks like it could swallow up pets and small children if it ever got loose

hehehe,

how do you think the ball of chaeto got that big!?!?!

chris melb · #37 11/05/2007, 01:00 AM

Haha that is one monster cheato, you mentioned that it gets that size in a week or so? are you finding that it strips the tank of calc, alk, etc...?

bergzy · #38 11/18/2007, 01:13 AM

chris,

how's that spinning chaeto coming along?

underWoasisjake · #39 11/18/2007, 01:33 AM

ok my cheato seems to be growing very slowly or maybe not at all if anything.... in my HOB fuge dark red algae seems to be taking over??? is that good or no??

also should i take the cheato out of the fuge and grow it in a bucket like bergzy then put it bak into the fuge when it grows more...??

bergzy · #40 11/18/2007, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by underWoasisjake
ok my cheato seems to be growing very slowly or maybe not at all if anything.... in my HOB fuge dark red algae seems to be taking over??? is that good or no??

also should i take the cheato out of the fuge and grow it in a bucket like bergzy then put it bak into the fuge when it grows more...??

snap a pic of it and post it...that will help a lot!

underWoasisjake · #41 11/18/2007, 03:06 AM

ok sorry it took so long... have dial up which suks A$$!!!

but here is the recent pic of my HOB fuge.... sorry glass is dirty cleaned it the other day.

chris melb · #42 11/18/2007, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bergzy
chris,

how's that spinning chaeto coming along?

For some reason it wasnt working well, i think i have problem with nutrients being to hight, i.e epiphytes, i have my N03 at 45ppm, which is quite high, have you experienced cheato die off from that?

Its still been sheding, ive recently isolated the fuge so that it keeps spinning and have done a 70% water change to reduce the N03 down to 10ppm i think that is helping it grow better not sure, it sure hasnt balled up yet, not sure why? But it did pull the N03 down to 0 in two days, so now im going to keep topping it up to keep the nutrients in the tank, im thinking to high of Nitrates and Phosphate can cause nusance epiphytes, have you grown cheato with No3 at around 45ppm.

bergzy · #43 11/18/2007, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by underWoasisjake
ok sorry it took so long... have dial up which suks A$$!!!

but here is the recent pic of my HOB fuge.... sorry glass is dirty cleaned it the other day.

the red stuff is cyano and is usually present when there is inadequate flow and high nutrients.

what you might do is siphon off the cyano which is a temp fix. then change to new bulbs...perhaps higher wattage/output bulbs in the 6500k area.

the most important is flow...get good flow running through it but not so much that it is blowing everything away and ripping things apart like the wizard of oz.

once you get that chaeto growing, your nitrates and phosphates should stop dropping.

keep me posted!

Billybeau1 · #44 11/18/2007, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chris melb
For some reason it wasnt working well, i think i have problem with nutrients being to hight, i.e epiphytes, i have my N03 at 45ppm, which is quite high, have you experienced cheato die off from that?

Its still been sheding, ive recently isolated the fuge so that it keeps spinning and have done a 70% water change to reduce the N03 down to 10ppm i think that is helping it grow better not sure, it sure hasnt balled up yet, not sure why? But it did pull the N03 down to 0 in two days, so now im going to keep topping it up to keep the nutrients in the tank, im thinking to high of Nitrates and Phosphate can cause nusance epiphytes, have you grown cheato with No3 at around 45ppm.

Have you tried dosing some iron ?

Macro aglae and dosing recommendations
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

bergzy · #45 11/18/2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chris melb
For some reason it wasnt working well, i think i have problem with nutrients being to hight, i.e epiphytes, i have my N03 at 45ppm, which is quite high, have you experienced cheato die off from that?

Its still been sheding, ive recently isolated the fuge so that it keeps spinning and have done a 70% water change to reduce the N03 down to 10ppm i think that is helping it grow better not sure, it sure hasnt balled up yet, not sure why? But it did pull the N03 down to 0 in two days, so now im going to keep topping it up to keep the nutrients in the tank, im thinking to high of Nitrates and Phosphate can cause nusance epiphytes, have you grown cheato with No3 at around 45ppm.

hmmm...

high nutrients should make the chaeto explosively grow faster than rosie o'donnels beard...and that is pretty fast!!!

45 ppm nitrates isnt that high...i've had higher!!! but is somewhat high for a reef...

i did notice the light bulb you were using is a small compact fluorescent. what wattage and kelvin is that? kelvin may not be as important but wattage...hmmm...

i have 65 watts of 6500k compact fluorescent about 2 inches from the water surface. i literally almost put the light into the bucket as trying to not waste any photons.

my only theory is that the intense direct light in a very small space along with the circular water movement expedites rapid chaeto growth.

i have found chaeto crumbling from two things especially...

1) not enough light. chaeto loves light. slow flow with lots of light still gets good growth, just thin and feeble strands.

2) not enough nutrients. believe or not!!! you pulled your no3 to zero? but then got i back up to 45? or am i totally off, again???!!!???

so, if your nitrates and phosphates are undetectable...you will see chaeto die off...which happened for me when i was going zeovit full bore...absolutely nutrient free tank...and chaeto died faster than ashlee simpson's career. chaeto die off 'can' be a good thing...it can indicate a very nutrient poor environment.

perhaps you can borrow someone else's test kit and compare the two...maybe you're doing better than you think with butrient reduction!

let me know!

tar.

underWoasisjake · #46 11/18/2007, 02:05 PM

ok great thanks bergzy!!!!
i will change out the bulb this week....
and i put the smallest powerhead i had in the HOB fuge and got some great current and the cheato is spinning in a ball so i will keep it like this for a while and keep you posted!!!

chris melb · #47 11/18/2007, 06:21 PM

The main tank has N03 at 45ppm i separated the cheato fuge, but kept in operating and reduced the N03 in that to 10ppm, and it went to zero in three days, then i topped it back up to 10ppm and its going down but slower, and im seeing Nusance algae the cheato is not as clean has stuff growing on it in places.

i thought that the lack of light may have an impact, whilst im using 5,500 or 6,000K my lighting is only 24watts, ill try upgrading that, i was able to get it to grow using a the same light but in a tank half the depth of the fuge that the cheato is in now.

Thanks for your help too, i really like this idea.