How Can I Tell If Ich Is Gone Or Hasn't Happened

[black_majik]

Ok , Well some have probably read about my ich problem. I waited two weeks with a unaffected chromis and treated with Kick-Ich. I adopted a clown and two days later something like Ich was on him. Now another two days later and nothing is on him he is swimming fine, eating well, and looking healthy for 5 o 6 days now. Now I know Ich reproduces and jumps of the fish but shouldn't it have came back by now? My lawnmower blenny has been unaffected too do you think its safe to add more fish?

[Percula9]

I would wait at least a month before adding any more fish.

[mrbncal]

Ich never really leaves your system completely. Its always gonna be there waiting for the right conditions to pop up. It spends part of its lifecycle on the rocks and as a cyst. If a host makes itself available(fish) it will latch on and complete its lifecycle. The key here is not letting your fish get stressed which thins out the slime coat covering his body, which usually is the firewall against ich. Over time as your system matures the parasites numbers will dwindle down, but it will always be there.

[wooden_reefer]

No, ich has to be eradicated from the whole system.

Ich should not exist in your system, only briefly in QT. Otherwise, it is always a matter of chance that ich population will explode. Immunity and stress are immaterial; what matter are the five planes of glass.

To me, ich is not something the aquarist observes. It is a procedure that the aquarist adheres to.

I have not seen it for over twenty years because of the procedure that I follow.

[Freed]

Ich is not always present in a tank. It is only there if you let it in by not properly QTing new arrivals.

[mrbncal]

Sorry everyone but I don't agree with you on this one. Unless your dealing with a completely sterile environment such as a quarantine tank(no gravel, no rocks ) you will most likely never completely rid your tank of ich. I'm not saying its not possible, just saying in a reef or fowlr tank its improbable.

As I said if you maintain your tank well and prevent environmental ups and downs (specifically temp fluctuations) as your tank matures parasite numbers will diminish and you will probably never have to deal with an outbreak.

"All diseases are to degrees environmentally mediated. That is, the physical, chemical and social make-up, foods/feeding and a myriad of other factors directly and indirectly dispose an organism to/from health to disease. Many systems teeter on being just about parasite free, though possessing latent infestations of parasites. With slight changes in water quality, nutrition or social interaction, this balance can be tipped either way."

I found the statement above in an article that Bob Fenner wrote:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

[Freed]

Originally posted by Freed
Ich is not always present in a tank. It is only there if you let it in by not properly QTing new arrivals.

[Gwynhidwy]

If your aquarium does not have fish in it for a period of at least four weeks, all the crypt parasites that cause ich will die. They cannot exist in any of their life stages indefinitely. The must have a fish within a certain period of time, usually this is stated as 28 days, or they will die.

If you had ich, you need to remove all the fish from your tank. Place them in quarantine and treat for ich, I prefer copper because of the hyposalinity resistant strains and I'm paranoid. Don't add any fish for at least four weeks, I prefer eight. After that, so long as you treated the fish correctly and treat all incoming fish in quarantine, your system will be ich free.

[tmz]

In your case the best method would be to remove your fish and provide a copper treatment in qt for at least two weeks symptom free and then continued quarantine. Your tank should remain fishless for ?????. Many say 28 days . The new rule seems to be two months. The reality is that most cysts will hatch and parasites will perish within 28days. Some articles note that some cysts,however,have remained vialble for 72 days and you would have to add to that the length of the life cycle in the fish and in the water.Keep your tank at 80 plus to speed up the life cycle.
As a practical matter ich may be close to ubiquitous in home aquaria at some level. It doesn't really have to be there and can be erradicated with long quarantine periods for all new specimens, prompt and agressive treatment and long fishless periods. Some advocate treating all new specimens prophylactily while in qt on the not so far fetched premise that the new specimen may have some latent unobservable parasite. I prefer to observe first and treat only when symptoms appear.
A risky method for you would be to leave your fish in the tank and dose their food with garlic(some believe this will help them avoid infection either by boosting their immunioty or masking them in some way from the parasite). If nothing else the fish seem to like the garlic enhancer.
Reinvestation usually occurs within a few days to aweek but can go longer if cysts are slow to "hatch".In this case I would wait at least two months before trying out a new properly quarantined fish and even then I would be concerned.

One other enhancement would be an oversized uv sterilizer capable of dosing adequate radiation to kill the rather large waterborn cryptocaryon protozoan.Some have indicated that a diatom filter may also filter out some parasites. Good Luck

[mrbncal]

Originally posted by Freed

From the end of Bob Fenners article. I put this here now because you wont take time to read it. I dont pretend to know everything but the guy who wrote this article is pretty sharp:

"About "Crypt Free" Systems:

There are such things, but unless the aquarist is diligent in altogether excluding these parasites through quarantine, treatment outside their main displays, most aquariums will instead host latent infestations... with discernible populations of Cryptocaryon coming to be through environmental challenge/s to their fishes. In actual fact cysts of Cryptocaryon can stay viable for a few to several months, hence ultraviolet sterilization, use of biological cleaners, allowing systems to go fallow... only decreases the number and virulence of these parasites. Once in a system, the system itself is infested and the only practical means of control becomes providing an optimized and stable environment. "

For the original poster, sorry to sidetrack your post, dont give up.

[Freed]

Looks to me like it says what I already stated above: QT all incoming fish, etc and you can have an ich free system.

[Gwynhidwy]

I'm with Freed here. I don't know of any reason why if you quarantine all incoming fish properly that you can't eliminate ich from your tanks. It may be a pain and quite time consuming, but it can be done.

[tmz]

I agree well managed quarantine is the key. To be absolutely safe q of live rock and corals and other inverts to ensure against introcucing unhatched cysts would be an extra step few would take. Once hatched crytocaryon can not survive without a host for very long

[wooden_reefer]

Originally posted by mrbncal
Sorry everyone but I don't agree with you on this one. Unless your dealing with a completely sterile environment such as a quarantine tank(no gravel, no rocks ) you will most likely never completely rid your tank of ich. I'm not saying its not possible, just saying in a reef or fowlr tank its improbable.

This misconception has caused more frustration for newbies than any other, IMO.

Ich can be and should be eradicated in a system. Three critical things stand out in the lifecycle of ich.

First, it always leaves the host at one phase.

Second, it must have a host in another phase.

Three, it multiplies in great numbers in the hope that very few find a host.

That is why ich is a disease of confinement. In the ocean, ich is not a disease.

Ich calls for eradication, absolutely.

Nutrition and immunity cures all is the worst simplification in this hobby.

Different diseases call for different strategies. I think of three classes and three basic strategies

Class one: ich and oodinium

Class two: external bacterial infection

Class three: internal bacterial, internal fungal, and internal parasitic

Nutrition and immunity is the variable that the aquarist should promote and rely on only for class three.

[Freed]

I just now put two bags with one heniochus diphreutes each into my QT tank. After I acclimate them tonight they will be in there for at least 4-6 weeks with hypo. This will ensure I don't transfer ich into the main tank if they do or even don't have any to begin with. It's as easy as that. No ich in the main tank to start because of proper QT so nothing to worry about after I put these guys in on or about late October. Nuff said bout that right ther.

[cello]

Ich is always in your tank in small numbers unless you are running a UV sterilizer. and, or a really small micron filters that can trap the parasite..Ich waits for a fish immune system to break down, and then it will start attaching the fish and multiplying. A fish immune system breaks down due to erratic temp changes, water quality changes, etc. This is why most people QT their new fish, to let them get used to their new environment and to give the fish time to build up their immune system and fight off the Ich parasite. One fish that's really prone to Ich is the Hippo Tang.
Fishes main defense from Ich and other parasites and disease is their slime coat.. Some FS will put "slime coat" additive along with the fish to help preserve their slime coat.

Hope this helps

Cello

[Freed]

Oh darn thought you would at least try to keep up with us.

[tmz]

Wooden reefer, I agree nutrition and immunity "cures" will not cure or erradicate ich but they can stregthen fish to resist it. I also agree ich(crptocaryon and amyloodinium) should be erradicatedvia qt and treatment when needed.
Freed, Are you sure a 4-6 week period of hypo will not damage the fish internally. Seems I've read about potential kidney problems because of less drinking and osmotic issues. i'm reluctant to treat a fish unless it shows symptoms. I do quarantine though.
Cello, A uv sterilizer can be very effective against amyloodinium,the almost always lethal form of ich/velvet since this parasite is a dinoflagellate algae. It is much smaller than crpytocaryon( which also can be lethal but some fish can shake it off) which is a protozoan. Since sterlizers' lethality depends upon the amount of radiation it delivers relative to the target organism's size,it will probably not kill cryptocaryon unless the sterilizer is significantly oversized.

[Freed]

Yes, have done it always and will continue. I do believe that there are some fish that cannot handle prolonged hypo but I am not sure which fish they are.

[tmz]

Thanks for your reply Freed . The reason I raised the issue is that I am thinking about changing my qt protocols but wan't to be sur I don't do more harm than good.
Tom

[Freed]

There is talk of tangs not being able to handle prolonged hypo but please do check. If you find something or if someone knows, please post.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally posted by tmz
Wooden reefer, I agree nutrition and immunity "cures" will not cure or erradicate ich but they can stregthen fish to resist it.

A bit more or less defense against ich makes no difference, especially from a strategic perspective. The number of waterborne parasites can be overwheming regardless. Ich comes in waves; one slip and the ich will gain the criticial advantage, in another reproductive cycle or two ich population will explode.

I am not saying that fish has no defense against ich, I am saying that the aquarist should not use enhancing immunity as a means against ich because the utility is doubtful and marginal. I do not want "helps"; I want sure.

Ich is basically not a disease of weakened immunity, but one of confinement--sans dilution effect of the ocean.

Do not understimate the effect of physical confinement, those five planes of glass, that alters the natural relation between pathogen and host. This is not unique to ich, just that ich is the most extreme example.

Ich eventually dies without a host; otherwise the number of successful reefers will be reduced, frustration will persist.

[Freed]

Down to 1.016 from the LFS salinity of 1.019 over the course of three water changes from when I put them in QT. Will hold here until later on today and do a couple more changes and get it down to 1.012 for the rest of the night and then tomorrow will drop it down to 1.009 for the remainder of their stay in QT. Hopefully I won't see any ich the entire time but if I do it should be within the first week or so.

[Freed]

At 1.012 since late last night. Will drop to 1.009 over the course of the day today and let you know how they are. Right now they are fine and eating well.

[Freed]

I just noticed a few spots of ich on one of the fish's tails, which is normally how long it takes for it to show up. I have had them at 1.009 since Sunday so after I see the last spot of ich the timer will start on the 4-6 weeks in hypo.