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Apogon leptacanthus - Breeding Log
OK - after looking at the muddled mess of all my threads, it's time to reorganize. Since I'm working with 3 cardinalfish species it makes more sense to dedicate a thread to each one. This first post gathers up all the details I have from all the prior threads as well as my notes (stored in the spreadsheet I use to log everything I do on the tank).
Apogon leptacanthus Common Names: Threadfin Cardinalfish, Blue Eyed Cardinalfish, White Cardinalfish, Ghost Cardinalfish, Blue Streak Cardinalfish, Longspine Cardinalfish, Glass Cardinalfish etc... Quick synopsis of tank/care/diet etc.. Tank - 24 galllon Nano Cube, stock tank and lighting, only changes is additional aeration (airstone in 2nd chamber) and addition of Purigen. Co-Inhabitants - 1m/1f Pterapogon kaudernii, 2m/1f Apogon margaritophorus, 1m/1f Synchiropus splendidus, 1m/1f Greenbanded Gobies (I've seen too many different scientific names to know which one to use anymore!), 2 Nemateleotris magnifica (suspected pair of Firefish). This tank is set up as a reef, dominated by Caulerpa sp. and other macro algaes, but also a variety of snails, hermits, a longspine urchin, coral frags etc... Diet - Frozen Foods include: SF Bay Enriched Brine, SF Bay Spirulina Enriched Brine, Hikari Enriched Brine, Hikari Mysis, Cyclopeze, Formula 1. Occasional Live Foods Include: Live Brine Shrimp, adult and nauplii. Dried foods: they'll take flakes but they're not happy about it (I usually use OSI Spirulina or Tetra Marine Flakes). I periodically soak frozen foods with SELCON. Overall, I'd say the Apogon leptacanthus are some of the most aggressive feeders in the tank...they're little fish with BIG mouths! Tank Care & Conditions - pH typically 8.2. Temps in upper 70's. Specific Gravity around 1.022 usually. Water changes are 3 gallons, weekly or as needed. All organic levels are very low to nonexistent (i.e. < 1 ppm Nitrate, 0 on the rest). Calcium levels while probably not relevant hover between 350 and 400. TIMELINE / Synopsis of breeding activity & behavior 11-25-05 - Added 2 Apogon leptacanthus from a group of recently imported wild caught fish (selected smallest and largest, smallest with short fins, largest with very elongated fins. Suspected Male/Female pair...) 11-26-05 - Went back to the LFS and picked up 2 more Apogon leptacanthus, again selecting disparate sizes and fin lengths in the hopes of obtaining a pair. 11-29-05 - the "longest" finned Apogon leptacanthus has yet to take any food. The others are currently only feeding on live brine shrimp. 12-3-05 - the A. leptacanthus that hasn't been feeding is now on his last legs - "he" was humanely euthanized. At this point the others are starting to accept frozen mysis and brine shrimp. 12-15-05 - I first noted "hints" of courtship or pairbonding activity between 2 of the Apogon leptacanthus. 12-18-05 - my notes indicate that it looks likely that we have 2 males & 1 female. 2 fish (one large, one small) have paired up over the last couple days, leaving an "odd man out", another larger fish (suspected male at this point). 12-20-05 - 2nd recording of "intensified" courtship between 2 of the Apogon leptacanthus. A day later video of the activity is posted. Quote:
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2-3-06 - FIRST SPAWNING of Apogon leptacanthus somewhere between 9:30 and 10:45 PM. Turns out I had the sexes in the "pair" reversed. The larger, more colorful and longer finned fish (which behaves as the dominant fish in the group of 3) is a FEMALE. The smallest fish, with shorter fins and less intense coloration, is the male who is now holding! I was able to post additional observations and videos: Quote:
2-11-05 - earlier in the day, I shot some pics of the male mouthbrooding. Quote:
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MP Last edited by mwp; 02/14/2006 at 01:25 PM. |
#2
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Great thread and reorganization. Looking forward to more updates!
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Currently redesigning my 90 gallon tank system to support coral and invertebrate breeding. Click on my red house to see the thread with the progress. |
#3
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Well, at the end of day 3 things don't look good. Granted, it IS late in the evening, well past the normal "bed time". A few larvae were casually DRIFTING (aka. "Free Floating") through the water column, while the rest are on the bottom, not really moving. They're definitely still ALIVE but not very active.
In the event that they exhausted the food supply, I added more of "everything" this evening from all 4 types of Phyto I have in culture + more Rotifers AND I harvested from one of our "Tiggerpod" cultures - mostly rotifers but there may be some copepod nauplii stages mixed in. Hopefully the larvae just "went to bed" early...I guess we'll find out in the morning. Matt |
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At the start of day 4 things look BLEAK. I pulled out at least 8 little bodies today; there is one larvae still actively swimming around, plus at least 1 or 2 more that are still alive (checked at 10X) but are resting on the bottom. A water test showed slightly elevated levels of nitrite (<0.25 ppm) so a few drops of prime were added to the 1/2 gallon cup. I also changed 1/4 of the specimen cups volume and added 55 ML of Nannochloris. I only NEED to raise one..so keep the faith!!!
MP |
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Good luck with this. Wathing with Interest.
Steve |
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Thanks Steve. LUCK is definitely going to play a factor here!
Well it's now the end of day four / the beginning of day 5! I still have one or maybe two viable larvae cruising around. Far cry from the original 10 viable larvae we started with, and likely due to some mismanagement of rearing them in such a small environment (aka. earlier nitrite spike). At the moment, with so few larvae and so many rotifers, copepods and phytoplankton running around, I think I can just sit back and keep the faith...not much else to do!!! They don't appear to be growing much at all...not a good sign in my book but then again, I look at these little guys all the freakin' time. I'll proclaim a small victory when I finally get to see one hunt down and EAT a rotifer! FWIW, MP |
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This is very cool indeed, I have a group of 9 bluestreaks in a 40 gallon tank with a pair of seahorses and one small ocellaris clownfish. They breed constantly ( I see males holding) but I have never seen a larvae and have made no attempt to capture any yet. I need to make some changes to the set up like modify the overflow or just shut off the supply pump at lights out. It's on my "to do" list Since I can't tell one fish from another I have no idea what the frequency of spawning is, if the pairs are manogomous or what. They are a group (schooling) so I don't think they are pair bonded but I really can't say for sure. I don't even know how many of each sex there are.
Please post at the next spawn so I can get a better idea of the frequency. Maybe I can find some time to try working with these guys, keep the log going and I will try to add to it if I get anywhere. |
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BTW, you don't mention anything about the bangaii's, is there another log/ thread?
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Hey David, I'm working up a thread for Apogon margaritophorus next, and THEN the bangaii's - there's so much documentation on them already that it's not a priority in my book, especially since the first three spawns have failed.
It's now MID-way through Day 5 - I have ONE remaining larvae that's still alive but just barely. The little guy is just floating around the tank, barely moving, not feeding on the bottom, just overall looking "out of it". I think 5 days is gonna be it for these guys this first time around... MP |
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Earlier this evening, halfway through Day 5, the last larvae was determined to be dead. So 4.5 days is our current record to beat next time around.
So far I attribute MUCH of our failures to having inadequate rearing containers - sometime in March that will FINALLY change. This is probably all the activity from our Apogon leptacanthus, at least for a little while. MP |
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2-20-06 - the one day I work at the actual office, I come home around 9:00 PM am find a nice surprise - we've had our 2nd spawning of Apogon leptacanthus. It's been a window of 17 days since their last spawn!
Really sucks that right around the time they'll be ready to come out I'm supposed to be moving all the tanks! MP |
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It's around 3:30 PM, central time, 2-21-06. It appears as though this spawn may not have been the same "pairing" as our first spawn. In fact, we may indeed have 1 male and 2 females as I recently started to suspect.
This time around, the long-standing "alpha" fish, the female from the first spawn, appears to be the odd man out. The other "unknown" fish is REALLY fired up and is chasing her around. The male, with his SMALLER-than-the-first-spawn mouthful, is now displaying and hanging with the 'unknown' fish. SO...it would appear to be that our 2nd spawning was the same male and our original "odd man out", likely another female. So perhaps this 17 day window isn't entirely accurate considering that it likely looks that this 2nd spawn was NOT the first pair, but a 2nd pairing. Kinda throws a whole different wrench in the works when there's 2 females and 1 male, at least in figuring out how often they'll repeatedly spawn! FWIW, MP |
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Based on my observations the females are guarding their males. So the one who hangs out with the breeding should be a female. The behavior is better to see if you have more fish. They all seem to built up pairs. I can observe that with leptacanthus and magriphorus, but not with my pyjama cardinals.
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Have a nice day Peter |
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Peter! Indeed, that is the behavior I am observing with my three leptacanthus. The female DOES seem to guard the male.
Now that you bring it up, it does seem to happen with my 1f/2m A. margaritophorus, but only for the first 24 hours or so. By then, the female seems to be off doing her own thing. In contrast, we're now getting into our 5 day, and the temporary "pair bond" that's been set up between our secondary "mystery" fish (again, very likely female) and the male is still intact. Peter, have you had any luck RAISING any Apogon leptacanthus, or for that matter A. margaritophorus? If so, any additional insights would be helpful on my attempts at batch #2! Thanks! Matt |
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2-26-06 - - we're now 6 days in and the 2nd brood is still being held by the male. The eggs have eyed up (you can see the little reflections every time the male takes a "Breath"). I'm contemplating catching and separating the brooding male in a breeder net - within the next 48-60 hours the larvae should be released and I'd like to have more than 10 to work with this time around Thoughts?
MP |
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2-28/3-1-06 - Talk about a TON of larvae. I chased the brooding male around the tank today trying to catch him to strip the larvae. Well, after several missed attempts, he spit the egg mass which got caught in a frond of caulerpa. I gently netted it with the brine shrimp net (a regular net would just pass larvae right through it) - kept it submerged and VERY gently transferred the mass into a large specimen cup. There it sat. More or less CUP shaped, not really a round ball, but rather a shape that could be flat but was rolled up into a cup.
Well, I brought a rigid airline close to the mass to keep circulation going and the babies started shooting off the mass like popcorn! I got it on vid and will post it in the next day or two. I'm going back to the mass to stimulate more "hatching" but hey, we already have AT LEAST 30-40 viable larvae and the egg mass is still very large - there are easily 200-300 larvae in there. More soon! MP |
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Alrighty, I turned the lights out thinking that would further stimulate hatching (as the fry appeared about 30 minutes after lights out the last time). Well, it may have helped a little. Heavier agitation (by rapidly waving a rigid airtube about 1 cm above the egg mass) seemed to stimulate hatching...I suspect that in natural hatchings (as our first one) the male must chew and stir the egg mass repeatedly to promote hatching. We have maybe 100 larvae running around now with potentially many more on the way tonight. I added 50 ML Nannochloropsus (cultured at a density of 8.8 mil/ML).
Those fry that hatched with the lights on all exhibited the same behavior..they'd "pop" from the mass, shooting out at least 1 cm, pause, then rapidly swim to the surface. Those hatching after lights out didn't appear to swim for the surface like their "daylight" brothers and sisters. Overall though, if and once a larvae makes the initial trip to the surface, it quickly returns to the water column or bottom. One thing seems certian - they shun light (negatively phototrophic). Perhaps HIDING places in the 0.5 gallon rearing container (clear specimen cup) might be in order? ALSO, it's time to take a risk - I have some black plastic bags that I'm going to rinse thorougly and place around the container's outside. Not sure how these will withstand saltwater, but it's the only way I can think of to "shade" the sidesn and bottom of the rearing container, unless anyone has a better idea?! Still hatchin' away! MP |
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Well, I honestly think it looks like a fair amount of the egg mass has DIED...or maybe they're just not quite ready to hatch. I positioned the mass near the air outlet so that with each bubble the mass jiggles gently, just a touch. I fully admit now that this was 'NOT' the original plan...the plan was to catch and strip...granted looking back now that would have failed too. A better route for spawn #3 (when it happens) will be to simply isolate the brooding male in a breeder net. Judging by how quickly he spat the mass when being pursued, I either need to be quicker with the nets OR catch him earlier on.
Anyways, that's more or less an 8 day brood time again on this species. MAYBE this one might have gone 9 days though? In addition to the earlier 50 ML Nannochloropsus, I've also added 50 ML Nannochloris (24.8 mil/ML density) and 25 ML Tetraselmis (checked the density on the 26th at 1.2 mil/ML). I'm bummed that this all happened when it did (tank teardowns may start as early as Friday) but I'm HOPING I can move the larvae and be OK. Currently I don't have any way to sterlize water for my Phyto cultures, so these cultures may be a bit past prime (everything is due/overdue for a major 50-75% harvest and refill with f/2 culture water). I may have "overdone it" on the initial dose of phyto to the larval tank; we'll see. The record to beat is 5 DAYS. Matt |
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One last thought for the night and I'm off to bed!
After the move, I'll likely be able to add 2 10 gallons to the aresenal. Had this happened in the future, I likely would have just set the egg mass up in a tumbler to hatch 'em out. Probably would've worked REALLY WELL. I'm sure sometime in the future we'll find out! MP |
#20
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Matt,
sorry for late reply but I am on business. First Barcelona now Paris. I am a newbie in breeding and glad that my first two Premnas baybies made it. I keep severla cardinal species and all spawn regularly. I will not give it a try before I made it to get several batches of anemin fish to adult size. Dont want to over estimate my talent
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Have a nice day Peter |
#21
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Well Peter, 2 Premnas is a better track record than my own!!!
3-1-06 - - it's been about 9+ hours since the "hatch". Got up a few minutes ago and found that indeed, most off the egg mass had died (a clump of white larvae...when they're dead they turn white pretty quickly!). Obviously the parents will do a better job of hatching than the "waving a stick by the mass" technique I came up with. Furthermore, sometime overnight the airline came out of the cup. I fear I may have had very low dissolved oxygen levels and lost some of the fry. Still, I have relatively a LOT of larvae to work with on this 2nd spawn. It's tough to estimate the number; looking lengthwise through the specimen cup you can't see through the other end...from the side it's just "green" but the larvae still blend in pretty well. Last night I harvested some rotifers and let them sit with a few drops of selcon before seiving and adding to the cup this morning. As with my first batch, it *appears* that the larvae are feeding off the bottom of the specimen up. I'm still anxious about placing a random black plastic bag around the cup, and some of the reading on the "Greenwater technique" leads me to believe that they *may* be OK without the darkened sides and bottom since there is so much algae in there. Well, like last time...we'll see... MP |
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Around 11:00 AM the rotifers I placed in just an hour or two before appeared to be GONE! Did the larvae really eat that many rotifers that fast?! Well, I harvested another 1/4 gallon from a culture and fed it immediately + have another 1/4 gallon concentrated and enriching with Selcon as I type this. It definitely looks like we have 40 or so strong viable larvae.
MP |
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At it again - had to place 1/2 of the concentrated rotifers in around 2:00, and now 3:30 they're already starting to look a bit thin again! I took out one of the larvae and examined at 10X - it sure looks like his belly is FULL of all sorts of stuff, but perhaps mostly rotifers?
I'm taking this all as a very good sign so far! MP |
#24
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Alrighty, the rotifers AGAIN started looking "thin", so I added the rest of the selcon enriched ones I started this morning and also added 50 ML of the Nannochloropsis. That basically brought it back to the point where I can't see the bottom of the specimen cup nor can I see all the way through it lengthwise. So far that "level" seems to be working well, so I'm going to stick with it. Lots of little larvae running around, still looks like they are feeding and the largest difference (From our first brood) is that they are all staying in the WATER COLUMN vs. the sides and/or bottom.
MP |
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Glad to hear you are taking on this brreding project. Keep us posted, does anyone know how long they take to mature?
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Thanks, Have a nice day. Julio |
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