Rhinopias frondosa ?

BIGSKY · #1 12/23/2007, 02:38 PM

I was wondering how long a Rhinopias frondosa lives, and personal expierance on how they are to take care of.

FishyMel · #2 12/23/2007, 03:47 PM

I've considered one many times but people keep telling me they only have a life span of 2 years, someone correct me if I' wrong so I can go out right now and buy the huge 6 inch purple one at my LFS

FMarini · #3 12/23/2007, 04:01 PM

They are considered a short lived species, how short is unclear a few yrs for sure. Many public aquariums cant seem to keep them long term, and I've only recently heard of a hobbyist keeping on longer than 3 yrs.,
SO if you consider they are a scorpionidae they should live 5yr+, but for some reason in captivity they don't seem to.

SDguy · #4 12/23/2007, 04:18 PM

I have heard only the same...nothing long term. Really a shame....

snorvich · #5 12/23/2007, 05:56 PM

Well they pretty much require live food. As such, nutritional deficiency in frozen food may be an issue. In the wild, I have seen the same fish, in the same location, for up to five years running. However R. apanes may liver longer than R. frondosa

danfrith · #6 12/23/2007, 06:13 PM

I've have heard similiar results about short lifespan's in captivity, even in public aquariums. But I do know of one hobbyist who has had one for 5 yrs. and one 4 yrs.

BIGSKY · #7 12/23/2007, 06:43 PM

So if you spend between $500-700 for one of these you probably won't get more then two years. that is to bad I really want to purchase one of these they are such a cool fish.

myerst2 · #8 12/23/2007, 07:46 PM

I've been comtemplating getting one myself and have resisted for the same reasons stated above. The majority of Rhinopias feed on live food in captivity. The live food generally have been fed poorly our not at all. This could be the main be reason they aren't getting proper nutrition to live a long life. Most Scorpions are one of the longer live fishes, but as always there are exceptions. As someone previously stated they have seen the same fish for 5 years plus. So there must be something wrong with husbandry. Also, most marine fish don't last more than two years because of something that the caretaker has done, not because of the fish. I think there is a somewhat recent thread asking for pics of people who have kept fish longer than two years. Not to many pics. Unfortunately we are humans and we get lazy or make mistakes. 95% we are the reason fish die unfortunately. If not more. Just my 2 cents. Tim

myerst2 · #9 12/23/2007, 07:49 PM

Here's the thread. I think anyone would be proud to show off 2 year old fish and they should be. It's quite an accomplishment!
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1276880

BIGSKY · #10 12/23/2007, 08:12 PM

If I decide to get one do you guy's think a 75 gallon bb and some live rock would work. he would be the only fish.

FishyMel · #11 12/23/2007, 08:14 PM

Definitely, thats what I was planning for mine.

SDguy · #12 12/23/2007, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snorvich
Well they pretty much require live food. As such, nutritional deficiency in frozen food may be an issue. In the wild, I have seen the same fish, in the same location, for up to five years running. However R. apanes may liver longer than R. frondosa

I would think such sedentary animals would have quite a long lifespan, so it surprises me to hear about such short experiences. Also, for the price and desire, I'm surprised one wouldn't feed them live marine foods (re: nutritional deficiency).

BIGSKY · #13 12/23/2007, 08:24 PM

My understanding is they should only be feed twice a week. I think I will feed mine if I get it a mixture of damsels and shrimp.

myerst2 · #14 12/23/2007, 08:33 PM

The live food is a good idea as long as it has no competition. I think gut loadind damsels, ghost shrimp would be a very good idea. I love the one they have on La. There's was a nice one ebay as well. Have you seen the pic of the pair of Rhinopias on Old town's Website. Simply beautiful!
http://www.oldtownaquarium.com/?q=node/134
This one takes the cake
http://www.oldtownaquarium.com/?q=node/101

BIGSKY · #15 12/23/2007, 08:41 PM

those fish are so cool. I think I like la the best.

danfrith · #16 12/23/2007, 09:40 PM

Has anybody considered saltwater guppies or mollies for these? There was an article in a past Coral magazine about this.

jmaneyapanda · #17 12/24/2007, 08:31 AM

Just to inform- there is some concern with overcollection of this genus. Having what is believed to be a short lifespan and low fecundity, compounded with a heavy demand for the trade, has concern many biologists that these fish may be on a path similar to the bangaii cardinals if we are not careful.

FMarini · #18 12/24/2007, 11:01 AM

I gotta say
--i had a great laff reading that 2nd link from Old town Aquarium

The second link is to a "mated pair of african Rhinopias", (http://www.oldtownaquarium.com/?q=node/101)

mated pairs

-thats a hoot the fish are not even the same species

Its a R. Eschermeyersi and a R Frondosa -- i hope its love

I will agree w/ the group thou it prolly is a nutritional issue w/ these fish, problem is not too many have figured it out, infact I've read and heard about more short lived rhinopias, than 3yr sucesses. Believe me when you pay insane money for these fish, you'll blow your horn if your having success

myerst2 · #19 12/24/2007, 11:12 AM

How can you tell the difference? I'm pretty sure the one the left is Frondosa and the one on the right is Eshmeryi, sp. I agree there is increasing pressure on them as more are showing up and prices have begun to drop a bit. I don't see breeding to be as sucessful as was the case of the bangaii cardinal. Tim

JHemdal · #20 12/24/2007, 11:26 AM

Folks,

There is a huge issue with identification of Rhinopias. People are identifying these fish based on their morphology in pictures and that may not work. I've been exhibiting these for many years and have had R. frondosa develop into R. eschmeyeri. Their coloration is also very labile - like some anglerfish.
The general trend that I see in all of these fish is a gradual change from colorful to less colorful, from reddish to yellowish and from tassled to smooth....

Jay Hemdal

p.s. - They are actually easy to convert to non-living foods, and we have not had real good longevity on them - 3 years max. I think. Most of our histopathology reports back on dead ones have showed mycobacteria infections (untreatable).

jmaneyapanda · #21 12/24/2007, 12:27 PM

Jay- did you see any symptoms of the mycobateria problems, or just find it in histopath. I would think it would be unusual to have the mycobacterium be a cause of death without showing at least some evidence in the gross necropsy (anomolous kidneys, liver, etc). Or even some gross appearance issues (dropsy, "pineconing"). Any idea where the myco came from? Any other fish infected? That is scary stuff.

FMarini · #22 12/24/2007, 12:34 PM

Jay--
I agree w/ the ID issues based on pictures, however, having seen lots of these fish, I've not seen an R Eschermeyersi w/ "lacey" pec fins or all the head ornamentation. Also your statment, of one species morphing into another species is interesting. Are you implying that these fish are the same species in different forms, like a locale morph?

I have seen quite a few of them loose colors and become much less colorful (which makes sense considering the intial environment they mimics colored algaes, and crinoids, and their resulting home aquarium which lacks all these), this same effects is obvserved in long-term colored anglers. However, i've notseen the pec fins change.

In regards to breeeding these fish, I have read a report where an egg mass was produced, but like w/ all scorpionidaes there has been little success w/ first fry foods.

BIGSKY · #23 12/24/2007, 07:25 PM

I have done a fare amount of reading on these fish and none of the articles I have read said anything about short life in captivity but maybe they consider 2-3 years a long time I certainly do not believe two years is a long time unless there life expectancy is two years in the wild? and I do not belive that is true.Please keep the information coming.

jetta · #24 12/24/2007, 11:54 PM

I researched buying a rhinopias a while back. From what I learned they develop gut blockages after an extended period of time feeding on un-natural live food sources such as ghost shrimp, mollies, and feeder goldfish. This eventually kills them but i don't remember what exactly causes the blockage. Maybe if you research it more you will find out exactly what.

I would think if you knew where it lived and found similar species that you could provide to the fish to eat you would have better results in terms of lifespan but you have to remember that they will be fed all sorts of things at the lfs.

good luck, it is such a beautiful fish, maybe one that is best left in the wild.

JHemdal · #25 12/25/2007, 12:26 PM

jmaneyapanda - Mycobacteria can be isolated from many frozen foods. Some fish are more prone to developing infections from it, notably Rhinopias, seahorses and seadragons. Our issues were identified post-mortem through histopathology. The results come back gram negative - suspected myco. One source of infection other than their food may be the chin lesions so many of them develop.

FMarini - Yes, I believe they may be the same species.

Here is a reference that argues against me and works to confirm R. eschmeyeri as a valid species:

Motomura, H. and J.W. Johnson, 2006. Validity of the poorly known scorpionfish, Rhinopias eschmeyeri, with redescriptions of R. frondosa and R. aphanes (Scorpaeniformes: Scorpaenidae). Copeia 2006(3):500-515.

Now - funny thing, the reason they needed to validate the species is that sombody must have invalidated it! This would not be the first time that taxonomists have been at odds over species I.D. I would not be at all surprised if in a couple of years, there is a new article challenging this. Take a look at an excerpt from the abstract:

Rhinopias eschmeyeri differs from the latter two species in aspects of form, location, and number of tentacles on the head and body; form of dorsal-fin margins and caudal-fin ray tips; shape of penultimate dorsal-fin spine; degree of development in lacrimal and suborbital ridge; and coloration.

The ONLY morphology I have not noted as changing in my fish is the lacrimal and suborbital ridges - every other "difference" changed in our fish. The head shape changes may have happned, but to notice them you would have to take meristic measurements, which I didn't.

Remember, these taxonomists are working from dead wild caught fishes, not ones that have been moved to new environments (e.g. captivity). These people may not even know these fish are so labile. Recall the huge issues taxonomists had over ribbon eels - they kept going back and forth; one, two or three species. Until people kept them in captivity and proved they were just looking at juvenile, female and male morphologies.

I'm not married to this idea that they are the same species, but you can bet I am watching the issue closely!!!!!

Jay

jetta - we have seen intestinal blockages, anal prolapses as well as copraphagus amphiopods biting at the fish's anus....