What to do with coral when you think is dying?

realest · #1 12/20/2007, 12:47 AM

Seems to me no one can answer to my first post, so here i am on the second question.

My yellow tonga leather is dying (i believe) and if it is true dying. What do i do with it?

Do i leave it in the tank and just let it die and maybe the cuc will pick up the remains?

or do i just take it out and in the garbage it goes?

Also if it is really dying, and i leave it in there, will it do any harm to my tank?

Thanks for any inputs! Merry x-mas

BangkokMatt · #2 12/20/2007, 12:51 AM

If you are sure it is dying I would get it ou ASAP. Be careful when you remove it as they sometimes 'rot' from the inside and can disintergrate when handled. You don't want it to contaminate your tank.

Sk8r · #3 12/20/2007, 12:55 AM

Remove it from the water and examine it. If there is any whole tissue left you might try a razor blade, cut once and cleanly to preserve only healthy tissue, discard the rest, and see if the healthy remnant, put back in, can be induced to take hold of a rock. [I've set a light rock pebble atop a leather to get it to hold on, and sometimes it works.
It will not work if the water params are not right, or if it is in the downwind of something that stung it. EIther could have caused this.

realest · #4 12/20/2007, 01:20 AM

I am totally new to this, i have no idea of how to cut this thing and save the good part. As i stated in my last thread. The yellow coral is brown and it is shedding. When i remove to another lower for better flow and lighting. Is looked like have of his meat fell right off. I see nothing but white on half of this coral.

Any idea what i should do? If leaving it in there even tho it is dying is not a problem, i'll just leave it there, but if it is a problem. Please let me know and i guess i just throw it away then.

Please advice!

Sk8r · #5 12/20/2007, 01:31 AM

Put on latex gloves [every reefer should have some] and feel it. If the flesh is solid, even hard, that's ok, leave it where it is. If you find a 'soft', even squishy part, lift the whole critter out. Lay it down on a clean sheet of plastic on your kitchen counter, take a razor, and make one sweeping all-the-way-through cut that removes all 'squishy' or rotting tissue. Throw that part out. It will kill the rest of him like gangrene if left. Put the healthy part back into the tank after rinsing it off with a cup of salt water.

A rotting large creature is always a problem. But understand that 'fragging' off a piece or removal of dead tissue is something we do frequently with soft or hard corals. You just superglue the frag onto a new base. Mushrooms are often reproduced just by cutting them in half and keeping them in favorable conditions. If you knock a piece off a hard coral, you glue it to a rock and it will grow into a new coral. A coral is virtually immortal, if dealt with this way. It can grow another half of itself, or a new base, or new branches. What it most needs is proper lighting and water.

realest · #6 12/20/2007, 01:38 AM

thanks for the advice sk8r, i guess i just need to be brave to do this. Just so i can get a clear understanding on this. So it is bad leaving any rotting part of a coral in the tank?

Sk8r · #7 12/20/2007, 01:47 AM

Bad, yes. You can use a butcher knife for this operation if it's sharp. And if there's solid flesh available. Mind, corals don't have pain sensors. They react to pressure/discomfort and move away, but you won't be causing it agony, the way you would a higher critter who has a brain to process and shoot the body a chemical cocktail of fight/flight/pain. This coral will not feel what you would feel. Just steady it---be definite, make one strong cut, and watch your fingers and don't let it roll under the knife. THis is where latex gloves are good.
Once back in the tank if you have left no rotting tissue [and don't be afraid to cut away some good tissue to get a clean edge], the good part will either decay further, in which I'd say it's a goner, or show some signs of trying to recover. Watch it carefully and if you have carbon in-house, run some: offended leathers spit nasty chemicals at their neighbors, which may be how this guy got burned by another coral...which may be what happened...set him in a corner away from whatever he was once near, and run half a cup of carbon, changing it every 4-5 days, until and if this guy recovers.

If it still retains a base and is attached, just put it and its rock in on the sand. If all that's left is a strip with no base, I'd take a rubber band with a gentle pressure and fasten the piece to a piece of rock, not enough to constrict it or cut it, just enough to keep it against that rock.

realest · #8 12/20/2007, 02:13 AM

Ok Sk8r, i just took your advice and have made the cut. I cut maybe about 3/4 of what the coral was. Now only have 1/4 left. Here is my next question.

Originally the coral was yellow. There is no yellow left on the coral at all. Even the solid piece i have saved and put back in the tank is grey and little brown.

Is that ok?

m2434 · #9 12/20/2007, 07:21 AM

Yellow tonga leathers are VERY toxic. Get that thing out of there!
I bought one once and it started to die (turned grey) within days. I left it hoping it would recover. My tank was thriving before, but everything drooped up after that. I was running carbon, doing 15% water changes a week (plus some larger ones right away) and heavy skimming and it still took months to get everything back the way it was. I would never trust a damaged
Yellow leather in my tank again.

Sk8r · #10 12/20/2007, 08:51 AM

Sheesh. That's alarming. Thank you, m2434. I have no experience with this particular leather. I had a pink encrusting that could set off the whole tank and make everybody unhappy, but nothing that virulent. Realest, your call, at this point: you can see the thing and we can't. If it has not improved and calmed down toward a more normal color by now, pull it out to a quarantine tank or spare bucket, run carbon in that, too, and let it live or die there solo.
For the tank, continue to run carbon, as much as a cup, and test particularly for ammonia. Your other softies are going to be upset and will probably be spitting also.

Savas · #11 12/20/2007, 09:41 AM

I just looked at a yellow leather coral at a LFS this weekend. The owner said a yellow leather was for "advanced" aquarists and that they were "tricky". They are absolutely beautiful though.

Let us know what happens.

Nanz · #12 12/20/2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sk8r
Put on latex gloves [every reefer should have some] and feel it. If the flesh is solid, even hard, that's ok, leave it where it is. If you find a 'soft', even squishy part, lift the whole critter out. Lay it down on a clean sheet of plastic on your kitchen counter, take a razor, and make one sweeping all-the-way-through cut that removes all 'squishy' or rotting tissue. Throw that part out. It will kill the rest of him like gangrene if left. Put the healthy part back into the tank after rinsing it off with a cup of salt water.

A rotting large creature is always a problem. But understand that 'fragging' off a piece or removal of dead tissue is something we do frequently with soft or hard corals. You just superglue the frag onto a new base. Mushrooms are often reproduced just by cutting them in half and keeping them in favorable conditions. If you knock a piece off a hard coral, you glue it to a rock and it will grow into a new coral. A coral is virtually immortal, if dealt with this way. It can grow another half of itself, or a new base, or new branches. What it most needs is proper lighting and water.

I have bene wondering about this..

I have a Green Bubble coral that is not doing so well. Half of it is dying and probably do to me handling it wrong when I tried to move it. Anyways.. I have left it in my tank because I figured it would come back. I need to get a picture for you but Im at work right now. Half is very good but the other half looks like it has some new whit bubble forming. The white bone like structure on that side though has a brown skin on it and looks like it is receding. I wonder if I should cut it in half or just see if it recovers.

Sk8r · #13 12/20/2007, 12:03 PM

I take it this is a 'wall' type coral, one solid skeleton. What you risk if you cut into it is getting into the living tissue deep in the base---I fragged a fox exactly in this shape, and ended up killing off one mouth at the severance. The good news is that both halves then thrived. You would definitely risk losing the bad end but if your params are as you say it should have the best advantage. You know they're lowlight, for a stony, least light of any of that ilk. And they will take target feeding. If you haven't tried to turkey-baster some food into its reach, do try that. I can't forecast what would happen, but a well-aimed Dremel might be the best instrument, score deeply, snap gently, and stand by with a razor if you see live tissue in the cut.
Coral will not overgrow an algaed area IME, but may maneuver its growth up and over or around the bad area. Ordinarily I say don't dose except what you're doing, but you might also add a judicious dose of Iodine and of Strontium. Strontium is said by some to assist a coral in laying down stony stuff, and may help prevent polyp bailout. I do know that THIS coral is safe to frag in the tank.

Note: on my fox coral, I formed my plan when I saw a naturally-grown head of fox that was a globe, ruffled layers helping guide food to the mouths. It is usually sold in S-curve strips. When I split mine, I superglued one piece to the other, side by side [the S curve is mathematically regular] and both pieces loved it. It is now, from a scraggly mess that was losing tissue in gaps, a very pretty piece the size of a big man's fist when it's full-out. I don't think wall bubble is similarly disposed to form a globe, but certainly my cutting the two parts separate seemed to relieve this coral. And bubble is *tough*. I had a bailed-out polyp of it come in with live rock, and it survived cold water startup, [in January, water transported in a pickup truck], the cycle---everything but a guy who 'cleaned my tank' for me. Sigh. He blew it off its month-long perch and I never found it again.
But loose polyps don't often 'take.'

Nanz · #14 12/20/2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sk8r
I take it this is a 'wall' type coral, one solid skeleton. What you risk if you cut into it is getting into the living tissue deep in the base---I fragged a fox exactly in this shape, and ended up killing off one mouth at the severance. The good news is that both halves then thrived. You would definitely risk losing the bad end but if your params are as you say it should have the best advantage. You know they're lowlight, for a stony, least light of any of that ilk. And they will take target feeding. If you haven't tried to turkey-baster some food into its reach, do try that. I can't forecast what would happen, but a well-aimed Dremel might be the best instrument, score deeply, snap gently, and stand by with a razor if you see live tissue in the cut.
Coral will not overgrow an algaed area IME, but may maneuver its growth up and over or around the bad area. Ordinarily I say don't dose except what you're doing, but you might also add a judicious dose of Iodine and of Strontium. Strontium is said by some to assist a coral in laying down stony stuff, and may help prevent polyp bailout. I do know that THIS coral is safe to frag in the tank.

Note: on my fox coral, I formed my plan when I saw a naturally-grown head of fox that was a globe, ruffled layers helping guide food to the mouths. It is usually sold in S-curve strips. When I split mine, I superglued one piece to the other, side by side [the S curve is mathematically regular] and both pieces loved it. It is now, from a scraggly mess that was losing tissue in gaps, a very pretty piece the size of a big man's fist when it's full-out. I don't think wall bubble is similarly disposed to form a globe, but certainly my cutting the two parts separate seemed to relieve this coral. And bubble is *tough*. I had a bailed-out polyp of it come in with live rock, and it survived cold water startup, [in January, water transported in a pickup truck], the cycle---everything but a guy who 'cleaned my tank' for me. Sigh. He blew it off its month-long perch and I never found it again.
But loose polyps don't often 'take.'

I got a picture of the coral for you. Please let me know what you think. The bubbles closest to you are the new ones. The old ones which are very green are in the back and that side seems to be fine.

I made a second image to show you the bad parts. If you can see the brown plates in the yellow circles they used to be white and they are growing more brown each day. But new bubbles below these plates are forming.

Sk8r · #15 12/20/2007, 12:35 PM

Yes. I'd split that. It's ready to go, and will probably take off and grow on both sides if it can be divided without too much trauma. Remember: sharp razor, if you find live tissue in your cut.

Nanz · #16 12/20/2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sk8r
Yes. I'd split that. It's ready to go, and will probably take off and grow on both sides if it can be divided without too much trauma. Remember: sharp razor, if you find live tissue in your cut.

So I should cut the whole part from those brown plates on down?

Just take a razor blade and cut it? Im new to fragging so I have no idea what Im doing. Also is this something I do outside the tank or in the tank?

Sk8r · #17 12/20/2007, 01:01 PM

YOu're going to need a hacksaw blade, the finest you can get, or dremel saw [rotary.] Breaking it by hand will be too iffy as to where it breaks. The razor is to sever any living tissue that is in the gap when it does break---you don't want to stretch or tear that. A cut heals--a rip is bad. You insult it gently with a gloved hand to get it to retract, lift it from the water, lay it on a table where your tools are, do the deed as deliberately as you can [give yourself about 5 minutes, ideally]---and then return both pieces to the tank, super gluing each to a suitable small rock base. If it already has a rock base, it is likely glued, and one side will snap off under a little deliberate torque/pressure. Do not saw the BOTTOM of the piece, if it has a 'tail': that's best left encasing the coral tissue: otherwise things get in there and irritate it.

Nanz · #18 12/20/2007, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sk8r
YOu're going to need a hacksaw blade, the finest you can get, or dremel saw [rotary.] Breaking it by hand will be too iffy as to where it breaks. The razor is to sever any living tissue that is in the gap when it does break---you don't want to stretch or tear that. A cut heals--a rip is bad. You insult it gently with a gloved hand to get it to retract, lift it from the water, lay it on a table where your tools are, do the deed as deliberately as you can [give yourself about 5 minutes, ideally]---and then return both pieces to the tank, super gluing each to a suitable small rock base. If it already has a rock base, it is likely glued, and one side will snap off under a little deliberate torque/pressure. Do not saw the BOTTOM of the piece, if it has a 'tail': that's best left encasing the coral tissue: otherwise things get in there and irritate it.

Ok I understand.. But why put back both pieces? I thought the one side was dead and thats why I'm cutting it off.

Sk8r · #19 12/20/2007, 02:14 PM

What you've got is a piece that is growing apart. Like my fox coral, it has gotten 'gappy.' One end is dragging the other down with it, not doing well. But if both ends could concentrate on their own healing, and not have one stealing nutrients from the other [they are a colony] both may start to prosper. It's not guaranteed the weaker piece will live, but it may. I don't know why this happens in nature---perhaps an injury, that has persuaded the opposite ends of this piece that they are no longer partners. But they are battling for nutrition, and possibly have gone so far chemically separate that they are starting to annoy each other. You will have a few mouths on your bigger piece. If the smaller has a mouth, or can develop one, it is likely to live, granted good conditions. So you could come out of this with two healthier corals. Or you could lose one, or even, worst-case, both. But the better coral will not be healthy until it sheds its now-fading other end. And the other end will not be healthy while it is being vampirized by the stronger end. Separate, they will each do what is best for themselves.

Nanz · #20 12/20/2007, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sk8r
---and then return both pieces to the tank, super gluing each to a suitable small rock base. If it already has a rock base, it is likely glued, and one side will snap off under a little deliberate torque/pressure. Do not saw the BOTTOM of the piece, if it has a 'tail': that's best left encasing the coral tissue: otherwise things get in there and irritate it.

The coral is attached to a small rock. After cuting the weaker/dead piece off do I glue a rock to the part that I cut to seal it? or Do I just glue any part of the dead piece to a rock?

Do I need the glue a rock also to the cut part of the good piece?

Sk8r · #21 12/20/2007, 04:16 PM

Each piece should end up with a rock piece to stabilize it, something that will keep it from pitching over and lying on the sand. You should end up with two complete frags, each with a rock, each upright on the sandy bottom in a reasonably shady place. And as far from each other as you can manage. Give the best coral the best spot: no percentage in losing the good one.

Superglue can seal a wound, and if you have that situation, just glue a piece of rock or branch coral to the cut end to prevent it being invaded by microlife, much as you'd bandage a wound, but set it with its bubbles facing up, and a good support rock to stabilize it in that position.

realest · #22 12/20/2007, 10:25 PM

Ok here is an updated of my life. I took everyone's advise and have taken it out of my tank (worry it will bring everything down with it). So I took it back to the fish store and have them took a look at it.

The expert said it is infected but looks ok. He drip it in idoline and cleaned.

I asked him to leave it in their tank and se if it will grow back. So I'll keep you guys posted.

Again thanks for everyone's help.

Nanz · #23 12/21/2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sk8r
Each piece should end up with a rock piece to stabilize it, something that will keep it from pitching over and lying on the sand. You should end up with two complete frags, each with a rock, each upright on the sandy bottom in a reasonably shady place. And as far from each other as you can manage. Give the best coral the best spot: no percentage in losing the good one.

Superglue can seal a wound, and if you have that situation, just glue a piece of rock or branch coral to the cut end to prevent it being invaded by microlife, much as you'd bandage a wound, but set it with its bubbles facing up, and a good support rock to stabilize it in that position.

I cut the coral in half last night. The good piece seems to be doing good but the dying piece not so good.. I glued them with loctite super glue to a rock and set them in a shady spot in my aquarium. I cannot believ how tough it was to saw through that coral with a hack saw. I hate power tools, hehe.. But I wish I had one last night. It took me a while to cut through that coral. Then I used and exacto knife to trim any tares of the soft flesh. Thnaks for your help sk8r! I will post a pic of them soon so you can see what I did, hehe

ricks · #24 12/21/2007, 01:36 PM

LFS and Expert????

ricks · #25 12/21/2007, 01:42 PM

Nanz, If one half is dying the other will probably follow. After all they are both in the same tank that caused the problem in the first place???

Your tank looks very dim, is this just the camera of overall lighting. So corals require more or less light. and then other require more or less flow. Knowing which, will help you place it in the proper area and not have to move them so much...

happy reefing