Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log! - Page 7

jnowell · #**151** 05/12/2006, 01:41 PM

Aww MAN! That sounds an aweful lot like things I do from time to time. I lost a 7day old batch of seahorses and a 3 day old batch of Clarkii's because I unplugged the power strip to change some carbon, and never plugged it back in.

Happens to all of us now and then...no groin kicks from me, lest they be returned for equally forgetful offenses

Better luck with the next ones. Might I recommend the 5-in-1 Quick Dip test strips

J/K, you still have my respect...and now I know for sure that you are indeed human.

Jason

Jason

Kathy55g · #**152** 05/12/2006, 11:34 PM

Sorry to hear. At least you found out what was wrong! Learning happens.
K

mwp · #**153** 05/13/2006, 12:23 AM

5-13-06 - Guys, I don't get it...it's 12:20 AM and the male and female are up at the surface again...the female looks more plump than a couple days ago. I REALLY don't think they're going to spawn tonight, but since I'm up anyways waiting for baby leptacanthus to be released, I might as well keep my eye on the mandarins too...

MP

mwp · #**154** 05/13/2006, 12:26 AM

Well maybe I need to reconsider that last statement because its' 12:25 am and they are now RISING...

MP

mwp · #**155** 05/13/2006, 01:18 AM

1:14 - I've been waiting for the leptacanthus male to reelase the larvae, but it just hasn't happened yet. "Bedtime" is approaching, so the mandarin lights are now out and the pump has just been turned off. I guess someone's trying to tell me something...and I just ripped apart the kriesel earlier today and filled the tank with fresh water, T-Iso and GBG larvae. @#$@#%$!!!!

I have a spare 1/2 gallon fish bowl that I can quickly set up as a makeshift kriesel...I think that may be the route I go this time to see what happens...not sure yet, we'll see if they spawn for sure soon enough...usually it seems to be about 20 minutes after the lights go out for this pair...1:35 AM by my best guess...HMM.

MP

mwp · #**156** 05/13/2006, 01:40 AM

1:35 AM ON THE NOSE WE HAVE JUST HAD A SPAWN! I got to see the whole thing..wasn't watching it through a lens this time and realised that a vantage poinbt from the floor backlit everything really nicely.

What I observed from "down there" was kinda interesting...when they really get hot and heavy at the top of their "rise" where my pair is on the surface, fins violently fluttering is that it seems they are basically swimming sideways, keeping pressure on each other vs. swimming forwards. So that's how they keep from FLYING forward...they're directing the swimming energy mostly to the side.

The egg release - man I wish I was closer when it actually happened but basically they were released within 1-2 second and THEN the "explosion" occurs where both fish dash to the bottom, disturbing the surface in the process.

NOW *** DO I do with all these eggs?! At the moment I'm grateful the leptacanthus hasn't let his brood go..it gives me a minute to think. I turned the lights back out after a minute, JUST IN CASE perhaps maybe the sperm can only find the eggs in the dark or something crazy like that....

I gotta take this spawning as a sign...someone up there is trying to tell me I need to give 'em another shot..what was it, 2, maybe 3 days since the last spawn? I'll have to go back and check the records (prior in the thread)....

MP

mwp · #**157** 05/13/2006, 01:43 AM

Yup, 2 days and they've spawned again...48 hours after the last one. ***?! Since I'm still gonna wait up a bit longer and think about what I'm gonna do, I'm going to turn the lights back on now, and either try to count the eggs in the tank or maybe try to get a count in a collection vessel (I think the tank surface might work better for these...they're pretty much clear).

MP

mwp · #**158** 05/13/2006, 01:59 AM

OK, I've collected maybe 99% of the eggs. When I tried counting in the tank, I got TIRED and stopped at 100 - my estimate at the moment is that this could be as many as 400 eggs out of one Mandarin...2 days ago may have just been a "precursor" to tonight's spawn...HMM.

I *think* I'm going to go with a stand-alone kriesel for the next 24 hours or so...I'm really not sure how things will go down if I place the kriesel back into the larval tank with all those rotifers and Isocrysis...that was one of the differences between #3 (when I got a hatch) and #4 (when everything died, even though I know know that most likely the failure of #4 was caused by nitrite).

Meanwhile, what's up with those leptacanthus larvae...they should've been out by now..he can't hold onto them forever!

MP

mwp · #**159** 05/13/2006, 02:02 AM

EUREKA, I THINK I HAVE IT, well maybe - the STIRRER! That's something I can set up in the parental tank - not sure 'cause I have to get the two liter set up in such a way that it's above the surface of the water...maybe a different stirrer is in order, but something, there has to be another way..HMMMMMM.

MP

mwp · #**160** 05/13/2006, 02:20 AM

Well it's 2:15 AM and I'm ultra tired and have a headache...time for bed. I tried taking some pictures to count the eggs but they don't come out with enough detail to actually be countable (I may post one tomorrow just so you can see).

And I've decided to go with the kriesel that we know works, so I set it back up in the 10 gallon larval tank WITH the GBG's. 5 or 6 GBG larvae are now in the kriesel along with a few hundred mandarin eggs...we'll see how that all works out. I have the air going just a bit stonger than it has to ensure that the eggs aren't all resting on the bottom in the morning as has been happening...I think it's a fine line between too much and too little circulation, the air makes adjustment a snap but it's still tough to find that "sweet spot"...it's not like the eggs stay in the center of the chamber or something, and I suspect with the kriesel it's really not good to have them floating on the surface OR resting on the bottom.

WISH US LUCK!

MP

FuEl · #**161** 05/13/2006, 05:17 AM

Hi mwp, not sure if this might be of interest to you. Chanced upon this product today but they did'nt specify the mesh size. Not sure if the mesh will be small enough to accomodate mandarin eggs.

Mini egg hatching jar

Maybe can try a design like this to see if it works better compared to the kreisel?

r00onmac · #**162** 05/13/2006, 08:14 AM

i cleaned up that video but ill need to shrink it... its like 120 megs now lol... use professional software, get professional sized files... i will try to find a place to post it... or maybe i can create a Gmail account and upload it for you guys to log in and download... idk...

mwp · #**163** 05/13/2006, 10:55 AM

Matt - if it can be compressed...hmm...just have to find a place to transfer a file that size and I could convert it into Flash and serve it up for the masses. iDisk maybe? Myspace? HMM...I wonder if I could get a private FTP site set up for you on my server...we'll figure this one out

FuEL - looks a lot like the incubators that folks have used to tumble bangaii eggs. Granted, I'm pretty happy to shell out $35 for an incubator...hmmmmmmmm

Matt

mwp · #**164** 05/13/2006, 08:04 PM

Well, this spawn has so far only gone a touch better...as of 8:00 PM we have ONE larvae that has hatched out...it's obviously very fresh, none of the larvae that look like "sperm" yet...The flow had been turned off for a bit and all the eggs settled pretty quickly...so maybe we're just dealing with fertility issues in the male (he's again looking skinnier than I'd like).

I turned the kriesel back up a bit to keep the eggs in circulation and have also added 1 L of nannochloropsis. The nitrite in the tank was at .5 ppm today, so I also did a 2 gallon water change and dosed with 1ML prime and 5 ML stability. This tank hasn't been set up that long, so it's entirely possible that the sponge filter isn't fully established yet...I'm gonna have to keep an eye on things.

BTW, so far I haven't noticed any dead GBG larvae, but they're showing up in the kriesel (at last count it looked like 40 or 50 in there)

MP

FuEl · #**165** 05/13/2006, 11:52 PM

To maximize fertilization rates it would be best if they can be housed in a deeper tank. At least 2 feet would be good. Limited vertical height has been shown to reduce fertilization success in groupers, when they spawn after hitting the surface. Almost 100% fertilization occured when groupers were housed in deeper tanks. Pelagic eggs should be able to float without the aid of any current, those that sink are usually infertile.

mwp · #**166** 05/14/2006, 12:39 AM

Well FuEL, I WISH I could give them a deeper tank but alas...it's not in the budget or "allowed" for that matter

With all that said, it again looks like this spawn has ultimately failed. I can no longer find the one that hatched, and well, the rest of the eggs are sinking like stones now. I'm sure there will be more...In the meantime I can focus on the GBG's and Leptacanthus.

MP

mwp · #**167** 05/14/2006, 12:39 AM

Well FuEL, I WISH I could give them a deeper tank but alas...it's not in the budget or "allowed" for that matter

With all that said, it again looks like this spawn has ultimately failed. I can no longer find the one that hatched, and well, the rest of the eggs are sinking like stones now. I'm sure there will be more...In the meantime I can focus on the GBG's and Leptacanthus.

MP

mwp · #**168** 05/14/2006, 02:17 AM

2:15 AM - it's official, I've ended this latest spawn and pulled the kriesel back out of the larval tank...the GBG larvae were just "trapped" in there and not getting good access to the food and such

Seems like the mandarins are on a schedule only THEY know about...guess we're just waiting and watching again.

MP

mwp · #**169** 05/14/2006, 04:23 PM

4:20 PM - Well, I kinda sorta spoke too soon...while looking at the GBG larvae I found ONE mandarin larvae in the tank..and just as quick as I found it I lost it. Harumph...but he's in there. Won't be able to report much unless he suddenly shows up big!

MP

mwp · #**170** 05/15/2006, 01:12 AM

5-15-06 - 1:10 AM - those dirty dirty mandarins are at it again! I noticed a bit of quarreling prior to turning out the lights at 12:20 AM...I just noticed some movement in the tank and shined the flashlight on it..sure enough there are the mandarins..rising. AWRT@#%$@#$@#$!! What, are they going to spawn like every 2 days now?

Well, I've turned off the pumps for a bit while I'm watching the leptacanthus and trying to figure out what to do there (he's 2 days "overdue" now). There's two differences between this and most prior spawns. First, I didn't have the pumps turned off in advance - actually at night the powerhead used for wavemaking runs most all of the night. The other difference...no courtship noticed prior to lights out. Perhaps those two reasons are why they're still courting 45 minutes after lights out vs. spawning at 20 minutes past "sunset".

MP

mwp · #**171** 05/15/2006, 01:20 AM

OK, experienced pelagic spawner breeders...I just had a kooky idea...what about using a brine shirmp hatchery for egg incubation?

If I get a spawn tonight I may just set one up and give it a shot...the last 2 times with the kriesel have been dismal, and if they keep spawning this frequently I may get MANY chances to experiment.

MP

mwp · #**172** 05/15/2006, 01:28 AM

OK, 1:25 AM, here's a twist. They're still courting and unlike most other spawning events, this time they're starting again from relatively low in the tank, giving themselves at least 12" of verticle height to rise in. In general though, if I could make any subjective observation at this piont, I'd say their hearts just don't look all that into it.

HMM..

MP

mwp · #**173** 05/15/2006, 01:29 AM

1:27 AM on the clock on my computer - WE HAVE ANOTHER FREAKIN SPAWN

MP

mwp · #**174** 05/15/2006, 01:41 AM

1:37 AM - 10 minutes of egg collection is enough for me. Looks like an average sized spawn...maybe 200?

The big question..do I keep the faith and go with the kriesel or not. I still have some GBG larvae in the tank (new record) but there is also Nitrite in the water at last test again (.5 ppm) so once again I've dosed with Stability and Prime. I'm kinda thinking that the parental tank water is a better "media" to work with. Racking the brains......

MP

mwp · #**175** 05/15/2006, 02:15 AM

OK, so I had this long diatribe and then for some reason, the computer simply restarted....so you're getting the condensed version this time...I have to go to work in the morning

I want to point out that unlike the past couple spawns, I INSTANTLY started collecting eggs vs. letting them sit on the surface for a few minutes. I don't believe I did that with my one successful hatch and the most recent two I KNOW I let them sit 5-10 minutes before starting collection...not sure what difference that could have, but I'm simply going through and trying to recreate as much as possible for that one successful hatch.

My ultimate decision considered the following:

1. My only successful (percentage wise) hatch was in a freshly set up larval tank that was 50% parental water "harvested" earlier in the day.

2. In it's current state, the larval tank is still running with some Nitrite in the water (tested it earlier today, 0.5 ppm again, treated with Prime and Stability)

3. Setting up a mini kriesel, bowl or brine shrimp hatcher would all be good EXCEPT that the temperature would fall to room temperature (around 70F usually) - that drop could be too much for these eggs.

4. The larval tank is currently full of rotifers, phyto and GBG larvae....none of the incubation attempts I've tried with the phyto/rotifers in the tank have really worked well.

5. The last 2 attempts with the kriesel may have failed for other reasons...I found myself constantly fiddling with the air flow...while I find it gives more precise control it's also a rather delicate balancing act...the stirrer is perhaps a broader and more stable system, and I know it too worked the first time I used it.

So, I ended up setting up the Mini-Jet Stirrer 2L in the parental tank. Rather than try to explain the whole setup, I'll just include a picture:

Now I know this will have some benefits. For starters, the water quality will stay pristine during incubation. Another possibility, that mandarin sperm could still be floating around in the water...by pumping tank water through I could be keeping the eggs in contact with sperm longer (and perhaps increasing fertilization). Finally...it's a REALLY EASY place to observe them during the course of the day as the tank is right next to my desk...oh wait, I'm supposed to be a hour's commute away tomorrow (I hate mondays).

Oh, and I said it before, but the whole reason I'm even up is that I'm waiting on the cardinalfish (leptacanthus) who appears to be determined to NOT let his clutch go this time. SCREW THE CARDINALFISH, we have MANDARINS!

MP