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#326
06/12/2006, 08:42 AM
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I'm struck by the fact that the eggs rise and then fall. In the wild wouldn't they expect to land on something: briopsis, caulerpa, algae mat, muddy river bottom? Then squirm around in that stuff for a few days before hunting for food.
I hope things start going better for you! seems like the list of variables keeps getting longer and longer! |
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#327
06/12/2006, 09:38 AM
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Matt,
Re scope - check out the QX5 toy computer microscope. It's about $70-80 bucks. Received mine from Digital Blue the other week. Check out the latest vid at 200x magnification of 4 day old frogfish larvae. http://www.putfile.com/mr_ugly |
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#328
06/12/2006, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
FWIW, MP |
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#329
06/12/2006, 02:20 PM
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The eggs do not just stay clear and then hatch a larvae. There is a development process going on. To troubleshoot your problem, you need to understand where that process is going wrong. AE has scopes starting at $170.
-steve |
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#330
06/12/2006, 03:06 PM
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Stephen, I think you missed something...AE won't be getting my business ANYTIME SOON AGAIN EVER as I'm currently out $100 already as a direct result of doing business with them in the first place (and their total lack of customer service). Product was shipped damaged and not functional as advertised to boot. Pretty ticked. $200 to spend on a microscope is not a luxury I can afford OR explain to Renee
 Take a look at the pictures early on of the eggs under development...sure they're not at 100X but pretty much the larvae hatch with nothing more than a "tail" hanging off the "egg" which becomes a bit more elongated. I'm not sure what additional info I would gain by watching the eggs under a scope other than to see if they are fertile early on or not as Ed has suggested prior. Mr. Ugly, I've considered that scope in the past due to its low cost and capabilities...I may just have to bite the bullet. It's still cash I shouldn't be spending and well, ANY microscope that shows up that wasn't "Free" I'll have some serious explaining to do! I can explain alternate incubators due to the fact that up to this point I haven't tried anything that's "supposed" to work AND NONE of the incubation setups has required any major investment (other than the aforementioned AE product). Gonna keep an eye out for any kind of good deal I can find. Just antsy to get home and see if we had any hatch today. MP |
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#332
06/12/2006, 03:17 PM
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BTW, I WISH I could freely redistribute this article as it's the best frame of reference. Copyright is copyright though. Here's the full title and authorship:
Early development of the mandarinfish, Synchiropus splendidus (Callionymidae), with notes on its fishery and potential for culture YVONNE SADOVY, GEORGE MITCHESON and MARIA B. RASOTTO Some quick quotes of notes on the development from the aforementioned article: 0 hours - Oval yolk sac, 0.85 ± 0.01 at longest diameter. 12 hours - Posterior end of notochord much produced beyond last myomere In other words, the tail shoots out within 12 hours or so..but again, a range of time was given as 12-16 hours based on temp. I'm not sure what really useful info I'll get by staying up all night to observe them up until this "hatch" (at which point they already swim). The only thing that might be helpful would be to examine them almost immediately after spawning (i.e. right after they are all collected) and look for early signs of viability - that way we can determine if I'm STARTING with viable eggs and the incubation is going awry, or if they're doomed from the get go... MP |
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#334
06/12/2006, 06:34 PM
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I just spent a few minutes re-reading this thread because ive been busy and have not kept up as much as I should.... and its a short reply that maybe ill be able to extend tonight when i get home from work
 so going in order of my empty head * i dont mind you or anyone else sharing any of my pm's or any parts of them that i have not explicitly said Not to. I grew up on the internet. if i dont want it getting out, i dont let it out in a PM for someone I have not seen in person. * the eggs do not settle, good eggs do not rise and fall, the larva mandarins do settle but, do not settle down until well after hatching MWP has not seen that age range yet. * proper eggs should float, and SHOULD be clumped together * after watching the vids I have to ask which propeller did you settle for, reason being is the zagi prop is a very high pitched prop, it *looks* from the vids like that is a relitively flat pitched prop. only real difference is probibly that you dont have to keep the prop soo close to the top of the water. * unfirtle eggs become white and sink, * I think the injection from a 9 guage needle sounds fun. not entirely doable, but fun to watch anyways.
__________________
smile its all good |
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#335
06/12/2006, 09:44 PM
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RSMAN, thanks for the comments - they're greatly appeciated. I agree, I think a higher pitched prop could help move more water...this thing really doesn't seem to move enough at all.
So here's the twist perhaps. Incubation at room temp with the prop produced a ZERO hatch rate as of 9:35 PM this evening. The water went CLOUDY and the eggs are a soupy mess, clumped together, caught on the propeller, caught on everything, still mostly FLOATING and NONE have sunk this time around. Even with the propeller being just a couple MM below the surface, the surface water has completely stopped moving. So there are two variables in this setup I'd like to revisit one more time before officially having to sit down and start considering that our eggs are no good from the get-go. First, in my tired state last night I never got around to putting in the Methelyne Blue. 2nd, I incubated at room temperature which may have been a relatively quick drop by as much as 10 degrees F overnight. So one more batch will go in the propeller setup, back in the larval tank, with some MB. In the past I've had hatches without MB and haven't had any water cloud up...something was different this time around. One last note, I got to talk to my buddy who watched the fish over the weekend - he found ONE larvae in the propeller setup on Friday evening - that's no better or worse of a hatch rate than any of the other attempts. Consider this one a flop (again). Time to break it down and sterilize it - I think my quick rinse may have not been enough to clean it up properly. I'm ALSO going to try making some STERILE saltwater for incubation...perhaps that may help. I'm playing with a TON of variables here...not enjoying this project at the moment. I may just have to stick to mini desktop kriesels that are easy to setup and tear down while trying to work on one of my other "easier" species - if I can raise and sell a batch or two of GBGs or Bangaii's I could have more than enough cash to purchase the microscope and perhaps even try to set up a 2nd m/f pair of mandarins (perhaps swap out some pairings and see if fertility doesn't go up). Disheartened for now... MP |
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#336
06/12/2006, 09:49 PM
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HOLY CRAP - I gave it just one more look...basically in the amount of time it took me to write the above at least 4 or 5 babies hatched out! Wait a second, that's right around our 2nd best mark already.
I think I'm going to separate out the hatchlings into a new container with clean water and leave the stirrer running. Low temps = longer time to hatch...duh. Even if it's just 4 or 5 I think I'm going to at least TRY to raise them up in a small container...T Iso, Tetraselmis and SS Rotifers are on standby! MP |
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#338
06/12/2006, 10:46 PM
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WHOO HOO - we just broke into double digits on larvae - 10 and counting.
Guess what...ALL the eggs, save a couple, are ON THE BOTTOM. I'm suspecting that PERHAPS the eggs SINK in PREPARATION for the hatch. I've spent the last few minutes blowing water down along the side of the bowl to stir the eggs up off the bottom...it seems that it's either STIRRING UP newly hatched larvae or perhaps even stimulating the hatching..... MP |
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#340
06/12/2006, 11:17 PM
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Awesome man! Good to hear
 B.
__________________
Currently redesigning my 90 gallon tank system to support coral and invertebrate breeding. Click on my red house to see the thread with the progress. |
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#342
06/12/2006, 11:26 PM
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LOL, no more have shown up this evening..it's been a while. I'm going to let the stirrer run overnight - looks like the official hatch count for now stands at 11. Still nowhere near to as good as what I got in the kriesel, but not too shabby compared to the 1,2,4,5,6 etc..
I've placed the larvae into the "mini kriesel" I set up a few weeks back and slowly added water from the parent's tank. Of course, now I can only find 5 or 6 larvae at a given time. Looks like tomorrow evening will be the approrpriate time to start offering rotifers. I'm contemplating leaving on a light overhead 24/7. My big concern is that a 1/4 gallon bowl is going to make keeping things stable pretty difficult. So, experienced larval raisers, do I continue to try in small containers that concentrate larvae and food and allow for a easy-to-observe situation, or do I go dump these in the 10 with some phyto and SS and hope for the best, likely never to see my little larvae again? Here's to hoping MORE hatch out overnight...doubtful, but ya never know. MP |
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#343
06/12/2006, 11:38 PM
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So thoughts for another attempt down the line. I think I'm going to try the original "flow through" kriesel SANS air, instead running it with the minijet powerhead. That will acheive the water circulation without any air....thoughts? Anyone know where I can get some really fine mesh for the opening?
I also STILL have to give the MB another shot, as well as try some various other antibiotics that Ed suggested. Watching the water go CLOUDY in this stirrer attempt kinda bolsters Ed's theory that the issue might be fungal/bacterial in nature, killing off the eggs. Sterile water is also in the works, although I still haven't quite figured out the ideal way to go about it (I think I'd have to harvest, then individually pipette the clusters and single eggs into the sterile water to minimize the amount of parental water that gets introduced). I SOOOO VERY MUCH want to NAIL getting GOOD solid high hatch rates. 100 larvae a per spawn would be WONDERFUL...that'd give me PLENTY to play with and start spreading around extra larvae to other folks who'd like to try raising them. RSMAN, what was your largest successful hatch? Am I missing ANYTHING that you were doing? I'm still going to put out the feelers for anyone who has a spare microscope running around - I have to buy Birthday Presents for Renee, a new car, and sometime in the near future, a ring Not to mention my new fishin' buddy Alice the Dog has run up close to $1000k in vet bills so far...I'm watching my account slowly drop every month as it is instead of go up (the *plan* was to save, not spend!) $100 microscopes...tough to justify looking at all that. Still thinking GBGs or some other larvae raised up could fund that purchase too. I really like the idea of a microscope like the one Mr. Ugly is using - something that can take digital stills and video really would bring a lot back to the table for you guys!Definitely willing to accept donations as well Heck, I should probably give up smoking and put that towards the mandarins! Talk about sacrificing for the hobby...seriously going to consider that though..Still not very optimistic...Imbuggin - I may just have to take you up on the offer to raise a set of clowns just to get some experience under my belt! Then again, despite not looking that great, it appears the Apogon margaritophorus eggs in the closed-kriesel are still viable afterall - maybe you folks have spare room and cash for some captive bred cardinals? Totally frustrated, excited, neutrally optimistic etc...Have a great night folks...I'm off to bed! MP |
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#344
06/13/2006, 06:37 AM
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My advice:
1. give up smoking. Not so easy to do, but the money you save adds up, plus you save medical bills later in life, and you get to have a later in life. 2. frag some corals, like a toadstool, put them in a small tank with flow and sponge filter, cheap light, and feed excess rotifers. Sell the little trees to your LFS. Easy 100 bucks extra a month. 3. Pat yourself on the back. You are doing an amazing job with all your different breeding logs. You've been very creative and persistent, and we thank you for sharing with us.
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#345
06/13/2006, 08:03 AM
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Congrats on the new record!
rsman thanks for the info. here's a link for fine mesh-- http://www.wildco.com/vw_prdct_mdl.asp?prdct_mdl_cd=24 |
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#346
06/13/2006, 08:55 AM
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Matt,
Quick post for now. My mini kreisel uses the bottom of a reusuable coffee filter for flow through mesh. $3 at the supermarket. This setup has been working well for me. I can do a 15 second water change by just lifting the kreisel, letting the water strain out, and putting it back down into the tank. Much better than the 2 hour airline siphon method. I also get a gallon or two of tank water and set it a slow drip siphon into the kreisel to do a more thorough water change. I'm thinking you could do a mini power head... like a minijet 404 or whatever it's called. Bleed off some of the output to feed into your kreisel for circulation. Though flow rate could be tricky, and you could end up flushing all the rotifers out of the container. I think I've seen those QX3 or 5 on ebay cheap. I'll look for some later. |
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#348
06/13/2006, 09:40 AM
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Fishgutz, thanks for the link to the Nitrex! I don't know...can we really call the "2nd best hatch" a new record? Still not the 25'er we got early on!
Mr. Ugly, I *think* I can sneak in a coffee filter really easily, especially with a $3 price tag - thanks! I was looking at eBay yesterday - all the QX5's are around $80 when you figure in the shipping. Admittedly, were I not looking at so many OTHER costs this summer I would have plunked for it already! I have two inquiries for fly fishing guides in Iowa...if both of those came through, well, that'd put me anywhere from $700 to $1000+ ahead of where I am currently...gotta follow those through. Another thought, we never got our security deposit back from our landlord when we moved back in March...then again I'm not 100% sure I paid him one in the first place...might as well TRY to get that cash too...would make funding the mandarin project easier Anyone need a new custom fly rod? I have a half dozen sitting around for sale on my website + another 20 I could build! -> http://www.ramblingreports.com/rodbuilding.asp - I could always throw 'em up on eBay I guess too but until now I haven't been in a big hurry to sell 'em! Ah, trying to raise money to raise baby mandarins...life is good Kathy, you're totally right on the smoking. The plan was to quit when the first human offspring were imminent 'cause truthfully I otherwise totally enjoy the filthy disgusting life shortening habit (OK, yes, addiction). If you guys start seeing excessivly grumpy posts and mean responses, you know I made the toughest decision!At least 6 babies floating around in the kriesel this morning,all looking green and swimming! It's tough to count them all as they get swirled around in there, but there's enough to at least make a feeble attempt at raising them. MP |
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#349
06/13/2006, 02:33 PM
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Don't ask me how, but for some reason we're down to only 4 larvae in the kriesel that I can find and at least one of them looks "behind" in development which most likely translates to "dead". There aren't any bodies on the bottom and nothing in there to eat them, so who knows where they've gone!
Back to being frustrated! MP |
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Nothing in there to eat them except each other! 
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