What's the latest on DSB??

MCary · #1 07/26/2005, 01:12 PM

I'm getting back into Reefkeeping after a 2 year break. I bought a 150 gal tank which is 30 inches deep. I had planned on a DSB in a refuge but that will have a small surface area and little room. Now I'm thinking since my main tank is so deep it is custom made for a DSB.

So, are DSB's still a good idea or are there better ideas?

Is 4" enough. Let's face it, they're ugly below the line and I want as much swimming room as possible.

thanks

Mike

AquariumPerson · #2 07/26/2005, 03:05 PM

actually, i read somewhere that they have to be at least 6" deep, thats what i would go for and i think too that you should use the finest sand possible.

d34532 · #3 07/26/2005, 04:54 PM

I had mine at 4" and I wouldn't go with the finest but the finer grade like 1 or 2. The finest is 0 I believe which gets compacted or if you have a lot of current you'll have a sand storm. When I had my tank setup I used 2 rio 1700 just to move the water around for cycling and to get out of the algea bloom stages of an early tank. The rio would blow the sand around but it didn't fly everywhere.

MCary · #4 07/26/2005, 05:38 PM

I've read that it must be at least 4" deep but 6 is better. I think I'll start with 4.

Nanook · #5 07/26/2005, 05:57 PM

[moved]

mike89t · #6 07/26/2005, 06:02 PM

DSB need to be between 4-6"

http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

Qwiv · #7 07/26/2005, 06:13 PM

The newer rule on how deep a send bed needs to be seems to be moving towards the partical size. Small partical sand can be shallower while large particles need to be deeper. The fine stuff seems to work at 3-4" and a problem above 4". 2 1/2 in a low flow tank. The DSM Crash reports seems to be more from people using either the very fine sand at 4+ inches, those that place the rocks on the sand or those with sand bed preditors. My personal system is a good layer of fine sand covered with a nice crushed coral type sand. Allows you to use higher flow and breed more pods.

To answer the original question on whether to keep a DSB iI would ask you, what type of tank you want. The Bare Bottom Tanks do very well keeping the bright SPS tanks with high light and flow, but with a low bio load. We will call them the rock cookers. The DSM tanks do great at keeping the soft corals, fish, LPS and the not so bright SPS due to the higher bioload. I prefer a hybrip myself with different substrate at different locations.

Welcome back to the hoppy. It missed you.

fishman805 · #8 07/26/2005, 06:55 PM

Have you ever considered a plenum design....?? Been around a long time ... Very much the same as a DSB ...but may get better removal of nitrates....

Savatage · #9 07/26/2005, 07:05 PM

What do you all think of this? I redid my whole system about a month ago. I was running SouthDown sand at 3" deep in a 75gal. That is gone now.

I have a 75gal. main that is BB. It is tied into a 75gal. sump/refugium that has a 5" DSB. I used pure white, pre-washed QuikCrete Silica. This way I get the viewing pleasure of a BB with the cleaning power of a DSB in the sump

I actually have a question. Because the bioload (detritus, poop, etc.) don't really get down to the DSB in the sump, what should I put in the sump to keep the sand healthy? I have 5 Nassarias Snails, 5 Turbos, 3 Cerith Snails, 10 Hermits, and A lot of Cheato. What else should I put in there? Should I put a bunch of my base rock down there? Will it cure out down there?

Savatage · #10 07/26/2005, 07:06 PM

Fishmean: What's a plenum?

mike89t · #11 07/26/2005, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Savatage
What do you all think of this? I redid my whole system about a month ago. I was running SouthDown sand at 3" deep in a 75gal. That is gone now.

I have a 75gal. main that is BB. It is tied into a 75gal. sump/refugium that has a 5" DSB. I used pure white, pre-washed QuikCrete Silica. This way I get the viewing pleasure of a BB with the cleaning power of a DSB in the sump

I actually have a question. Because the bioload (detritus, poop, etc.) don't really get down to the DSB in the sump, what should I put in the sump to keep the sand healthy? I have 5 Nassarias Snails, 5 Turbos, 3 Cerith Snails, 10 Hermits, and A lot of Cheato. What else should I put in there? Should I put a bunch of my base rock down there? Will it cure out down there?

Sounds like a lot of extra work. One of the main purposes of a DSB is that it cleans up the detritus for you. That's not the case with your setup.

Basically you will need to feed your DSB to keep it alive because all of the food for it is staying in the main tank.

Savatage · #12 07/26/2005, 07:16 PM

My main tank is a reef. Really nice corals and a few fish. In the sump, because it is a 75gal sump, I want to put a few non reef safe fish like some dwarf angels and butterfly fish. Do you think that will help feed the DSB? Reason is because I will have to feed the fish that I put down there.

mike89t · #13 07/26/2005, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Savatage
My main tank is a reef. Really nice corals and a few fish. In the sump, because it is a 75gal sump, I want to put a few non reef safe fish like some dwarf angels and butterfly fish. Do you think that will help feed the DSB? Reason is because I will have to feed the fish that I put down there.

That would definitly help feed the remote DSB. Until then I would add some flake food periodically to your Fuge. Nassarias need it as they eat leftover food and not algae.

Savatage · #14 07/26/2005, 08:02 PM

Thanks a lot. I will do that.

Qwiv · #15 07/26/2005, 11:50 PM

Plenums have proven to mostly be useless

romunov · #16 07/27/2005, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Because the bioload (detritus, poop, etc.) don't really get down to the DSB in the sump, what should I put in the sump to keep the sand healthy?

Food and a good dose of live sand. That being said, remote sand beds usually don't work for a number of reasons.

Have you read the article mike89t provided? It should answer most questions you might have. Additionally, you might want to search for "remote dsb" in Ask Dr. Ron forum.

I am researching the "DSB crashes" and it turns out (although I need to collect more data) most people are doing it all wrong.

If I were you, I wouldn't go DSB. I do have a DSB, but my tank is designed around it, because I prefer snails, worms and other neat creatures over corals and fish. Don't try this at home. ^-^

Nanook · #17 07/27/2005, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Qwiv
Plenums have proven to mostly be useless

Really, I haven't read anything to substantiate that statement?

Nanook

69vette · #18 07/27/2005, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MCary
Let's face it, they're ugly below the line and I want as much swimming room as possible.

thanks

Mike

This is the exact reason why I would never use one. The benefits from a DSB (and I'm still not convinced that there really are any) are far out weighed by the fact that I don't have to look at the digusting crud, algae and filth against the glass.

Sycamoron · #19 07/27/2005, 07:05 AM

Take a look at this article. Good information about effect of plenum, particle size, and sand bed depth on nutrient levels. Short answer is plenum vs no plenum and deep vs shallow didn't matter. Only difference in nutrient levels was with phosphate, between coarse and fine particle size.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature

Bomber · #20 07/27/2005, 07:52 AM

Quote:

What's the latest on DSB??

Nothing really. They still do everything they used to do - good and bad.

Probably the latest is that people are slowly starting to realize that they are just another type of filter. Some filters work better for some types of animals and some filters work better for other types of animals. Depending on what you want the system to house, it might just be a ok choice or it might be the worst choice.

All the things that a DSB filter was supposed to fix is slowly being realized that it also causes some of those things.

You didn't mention what type of system you want, a DSB might not be the best filter for it.

Nanook · #21 07/27/2005, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sycamoron
Take a look at this article. Good information about effect of plenum, particle size, and sand bed depth on nutrient levels. Short answer is plenum vs no plenum and deep vs shallow didn't matter. Only difference in nutrient levels was with phosphate, between coarse and fine particle size.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature

Interesting article...thanks for the link!

dave

MCary · #22 07/27/2005, 09:50 AM

The tank I'm setting up is a 150 gal. 24"x 48"x 30"H. Everything I buy or use is being planned based on a future SPS tank. I don't want to have to get new lights or filters or tear out a sand bed in a year or two when the SPS starts. I do want an effective Nitrate removal system and as clean water as I can get.

Bomber · #23 07/27/2005, 09:57 AM

I think a DSB is the worst filter for a SPS tank.

If you're worried about nitrates, then where do nitrates come from? Don't let crud sit in the tank and rot and you won't have nitrates.
Also, don't store that crud and you won't have phosphates which is going to be a bigger problem with SPS.

MCary · #24 07/27/2005, 10:31 AM

Roger that, thanks

Qwiv · #25 07/27/2005, 12:14 PM

Anthony Calfo has done some research and found the plenum has no advantage over a DSB. I think the plenum was a transition to the DSB. The idea of having a low oxygen area for the bacteria that remove NO3, but bacteria need a surface to live on. Fill the plenum with sand for bacteria surface arae and you have a DSB.

If you are goind for a Super SPS system, get a skimmer 2x the tank and go bare bottom with 20x flow. those systems make the most mind blowing SPS tanks. Keep a very low fish load though.

As far as people who don't like looking at the sides of a DSB, a piece of molding will cure that instantly.