What's the latest on DSB??

[mike89t]

Originally posted by Qwiv
If you are goind for a Super SPS system, get a skimmer 2x the tank and go bare bottom with 20x flow. those systems make the most mind blowing SPS tanks. Keep a very low fish load though.

As far as people who don't like looking at the sides of a DSB, a piece of molding will cure that instantly.

I agree. If you are going for a Hardcore SPS tank that is basically overgrown with SPS then skip the DSB and keep the fish load extremely low.

However if you plan on stocking your tank moderately with fish then I think the DSB is the way to go. IMO There are several keys to making a DSB successful:

• Make sure the DSB is the proper depth and grain size
• Stock your DSB with beneficial critters/detritivores
• Avoid critters that prey on the DSB critters/infauna
• Strong Water Flow
• Vigorous Protein Skimming
• Grow Macro Algae for additional Nutrient Export
• Periodically Recharge your DSB with critters

If properly installed and maintained a DSB will be your best friend. If done improperly it will be your worst enemy.

[Bomber]

or you could just do the strong water flow and vigorous skimming and skip buying all those sand bed critters, adding a micro/fuge or algae scrubber, and phosphate removers, etc etc

That is unless you just want to complicate things.

[mike89t]

Originally posted by Bomber
or you could just do the strong water flow and vigorous skimming and skip buying all those sand bed critters, adding a micro/fuge or algae scrubber, and phosphate removers, etc etc

That is unless you just want to complicate things.

I agree that there is setup costs involved with a DSB. I also think that a DSB is not the best choice for a newbie who doesn't take the time to fully research DSBs.

IMO a DSB is better than having to siphon the crap off the bottom of the tank on a regular basis. A properly set up DSB will pretty much take care of itself once it's established.

Not to mention I love watching the sand bed critters and the overall look of a sand bed. Bare Bottom tanks just looks unnatural to me.

[Savatage]

Does anyone happen to know the link to that DSB artical? I forgot where it is. I need to read a couple things before I ask. Thanks

[Bomber]

Originally posted by mike89t
IMO a DSB is better than having to siphon the crap off the bottom of the tank on a regular basis. A properly set up DSB will pretty much take care of itself once it's established.

Mike?!?!?!

Originally posted by mike89t
IMO There are several keys to making a DSB successful:

• Make sure the DSB is the proper depth and grain size
• Stock your DSB with beneficial critters/detritivores
• Avoid critters that prey on the DSB critters/infauna
• Strong Water Flow
• Vigorous Protein Skimming
• Grow Macro Algae for additional Nutrient Export
• Periodically Recharge your DSB with critters

[Bomber]

Originally posted by mike89t
I agree. If you are going for a Hardcore SPS tank that is basically overgrown with SPS then skip the DSB and keep the fish load extremely low.

However if you plan on stocking your tank moderately with fish then I think the DSB is the way to go. IMO There are several keys to making a DSB successful:

Mike, here's my "fish load" in a BB. If I ran this fish load in a DSB tank, I would crash that DSB for sure.
The only thing that limits you in a BB, is your ability to skim it out. If you get it to the skimmer, have enough turn over in the skimmer, and operate that skimmer right - it's how you get it out of there. You can't do what with a DSB and you shouldn't. DSB have to be fed. And in spite of what's being said about DSB's, if you have enough flow to get it out - with a DSB - you have that ever popular suspended sand look.

mature Pr. Reef B'fly
pr royal gramma
pr black cap gramma
baby french angel 3"
blue chromis
pr saddled blenny
pr green razor wrasse
mature male yellow head wrasse
2 med spotted goat
pr tobacco fish
4 chalk bass
pr candy bass
2 sunshine chromis
3 purple reef chromis
juv smooth trunkfish
pr of one spot cardinals
cuban hog

[Qwiv]

24 fish in a 450 gal tank is a low bioload in my opinion. I could keep all those, minus the bass in my 180 no problem. Plus you have to consider the little critters that most likely out weight the fish in biomass. Bomber, you sell the BB tank like you own rights in it.

[Rod Buehler]

Originally posted by mike89t
I agree that there is setup costs involved with a DSB. I also think that a DSB is not the best choice for a newbie who doesn't take the time to fully research DSBs.

IMO a DSB is better than having to siphon the crap off the bottom of the tank on a regular basis. A properly set up DSB will pretty much take care of itself once it's established.

Not to mention I love watching the sand bed critters and the overall look of a sand bed. Bare Bottom tanks just looks unnatural to me.

I couldnt agree more!

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Qwiv
24 fish in a 450 gal tank is a low bioload in my opinion. I could keep all those, minus the bass in my 180 no problem. Plus you have to consider the little critters that most likely out weight the fish in biomass. Bomber, you sell the BB tank like you own rights in it.

I count 32, not 24, and about 1/2 of them are very big. They also get fed 3-4 times a day.

That would crash a DSB. I could not get enough flow across a DSB to remove enough without also removing the sand.

You're right though. The biomass of critters and bacteria in a DSB would more than likely place a much higher demand on the system.

[Bomber]

A properly set up DSB will pretty much take care of itself once it's established.

Originally posted by Rod Buehler
I couldnt agree more!

Ok, question.

How would you know ahead of time that it's not working right and you need to do something about it to fix it?

From what I've seen, you can't and don't. Once you get hair algae problems, recession on your corals, etc - that tells you your sand bed is not working properly.

[LiquidShaneo]

There's a follow-up article also: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature

Shane

[Flatlander]

Originally posted by Bomber
or you could just do the strong water flow and vigorous skimming and skip buying all those sand bed critters, adding a micro/fuge or algae scrubber, and phosphate removers, etc etc

That is unless you just want to complicate things.

Jerel, will you quit picking on my scrubber.

[Bomber]

[Orchids]

I am in the same boat as to whether or not I should go with a DSB or BB. My current 90 gal is DSB and I going to move the contents of the tank to a 120. As I have not set up the 120 yet, I am trying to decide what to do. Personnaly, I am not a fan of BB as they just don't appeal to my tastes. I was considering a shallow bed of either sand or crushed coral. This is for aesthetics and nothing more. I can create the filter I need in my sump or fuge.

I like the look of CC and was curious to the success others have had with it.

[mike89t]

Originally posted by Bomber
Ok, question.

How would you know ahead of time that it's not working right and you need to do something about it to fix it?

From what I've seen, you can't and don't. Once you get hair algae problems, recession on your corals, etc - that tells you your sand bed is not working properly.

By simple observation of the sand bed. If you notice that your Detritivores in your sand bed are not keeping it clean, then most likely you have to much of a bioload on your system and will need to remove a fish or two.

IMO the key is to add fish/inverts to your system very slowly and observe. Assuming you don't add stuff too fast you should be able to achieve a happy medium. As always in this hobby, nothing good ever happens fast.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by mike89t
By simple observation of the sand bed. If you notice that your Detritivores in your sand bed are not keeping it clean, then most likely you have to much of a bioload on your system and will need to remove a fish or two.

And then what? After you notice that your detritivores are not keeping it clean - it's too late.
Plus, according the the sand bed experts - those detritivores have to be actively fed. Like they don't poop too. They consume O2, they produce acids, they produce waste, - and on and on. They are just as much alive as adding a fish, coral, crab, or snail. Not to mention the bacterial load to support all that.

I wonder how many people actually realize that the biggest "bio-load" on a DSB system - is the DSB itself? It alone consumes huge quantities of oxygen, produces CO2, produces waste, consumes huge quantities of carbon (buffer, alkalinity, etc), stores and releases phosphate, - all things it has to do to function at all.

and all because you're trying to run a septic tank rather than just getting it out of there.

[Cluckr7]

Hey Bomber, I recently became a strong advocate against DSBs, as one of my powerheads recently fell and stirred up a part of my DSB, and I've been battling the worst cyano and hair algae i've ever seen for the last month. I've been reading your posts about BB and I've concluded that you are right in keeping no nutrients in your tank at all, with a BB and wetskimming is a much better and safer method, for your applications. I think that a DSB has a huge potential for disaster since so many nutrients are essentially "stored" in a DSB. I thought my DSB was clean and detritus free, but when my powerhead blew some of it up, my tank was literally engulfed in nasty junk that had been hiding in my sand bed.

My question is, what are your thoughts on keeping a very thin layer of crushed coral or coarser grade sand for aesthetic reasons? I understand that this goes against the method that you use - nothign to catch detritus at all and quick export to your skimmer, but I think that I with something like CC or coarse sand, I could easily siphon out any detritus. I don't care about using this stuff as a biological filter, just for aesthetics. Do you think keeping a very thin layer of substrate is worth it if I really like the look or would you still go BB?

[mike89t]

Originally posted by Bomber
And then what? After you notice that your detritivores are not keeping it clean - it's too late.
Plus, according the the sand bed experts - those detritivores have to be actively fed. Like they don't poop too. They consume O2, they produce acids, they produce waste, - and on and on. They are just as much alive as adding a fish, coral, crab, or snail. Not to mention the bacterial load to support all that.

I wonder how many people actually realize that the biggest "bio-load" on a DSB system - is the DSB itself? It alone consumes huge quantities of oxygen, produces CO2, produces waste, consumes huge quantities of carbon (buffer, alkalinity, etc), stores and releases phosphate, - all things it has to do to function at all.

and all because you're trying to run a septic tank rather than just getting it out of there.

Where did I ever say that a DSB isn't alive? It's all part of the process. Fish eat the food but really only digest a small part of it before they poop the rest out. Then the Snails and other inverts snack on the fish poop and break it down some more. Then the worms and detritivores... etc all the way down to the bacteria.

Most of what is left over is dissolved organics which the Protien Skimmer and Macro Algae remove. I'll take my septic tank over shoveling S!@# any day!

[Bomber]

I've concluded that you are right in keeping no nutrients in your tank at all,

I just chose to run my tank at home BB. Without the DSB competing for nutrients, and with the flow to keep it up and suspended in the water column, I'm exposing my corals, etc to more nutrients - feeding them better - and also not storing them to give me problems later.

My question is, what are your thoughts on keeping a very thin layer of crushed coral or coarser grade sand for aesthetic reasons?

I think it's probably the worst. You eliminate the ability of a DSB to create a anaerobic area to store phosphate - yet at the same time create a aerobic area and settling area to trap waste, let it rot (with no where to store it - anaerobic) and then release it.

[mike89t]

Originally posted by Bomber
I think it's probably the worst. You eliminate the ability of a DSB to create a anaerobic area to store phosphate - yet at the same time create a aerobic area and settling area to trap waste, let it rot (with no where to store it - anaerobic) and then release it.

I agree, CC is the worst thing to put in your tank for all the reasons Bomber lists.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by mike89t
Most of what is left over is dissolved organics which the Protien Skimmer and Macro Algae remove. I'll take my septic tank over shoveling S!@# any day!

You can tell right off when someone has never actually run a BB system. They say things like this.

Everything you're storing and trying to process, you could just remove initially with circulation and wet skimming.
That simple.

and not have all that bio-load going on - and not run the risk of a DSB crash at all.

As far as what you think you're shoveling, I siphon out about a 1/8cup once a month. I don't have to worry if I have enough sand bed critters, I don't have that DSB placing so much load on the system, I don't have to buy DSB re-charge kits, I don't have to use a algae scrubber, refugia, or chemical phosphate removers, and

I don't ever have to worry about something I have no real control over crashing and killing my tank.

[mike89t]

Originally posted by Bomber
Everything you're storing and trying to process, you could just remove initially with circulation and wet skimming.
That simple.

I not disagreeing with you, I know I can. You already told me 10 times in this thread. I've seen your tank and you keep it very clean.

And if it makes you happy, my QT is a BB!

[Bomber]

I'm just avoiding work by talking to you.

DSB's are not a new thing BTW. I know they became the new fad a few years ago, but if you get out of the hobby books they've been around for over a hundred years. Yves Plessis wrote a lot about them for the National Museum of Natural History, Paris. And what he wrote about them still holds true today. Because you can't change what marine sediments do.

[mike89t]

Originally posted by Bomber


I'm just avoiding work by talking to you.

I know. Sometimes it feels like I'm paid to surf RC.

[Bomber]

YOU'RE NOT??!!



(I'm not either, now I'm feeling quilty. Guess I better get something done. )