tank-room stand: materials and paint

[RyanBrucks]

Hello all,

I'm about ready to build my stand/closet for my tank room in the garage.

It will hold:
50G refugium (36x18x18)
35G frag (36x18x12)
50G RO (36x18x18
50G SW mixing (36x18x18)

Here's a drawing of what it will look like:



The corner vertical beams will be 4x4, and the tank supporting members will be 2x4, each will have 3 beams running perpendicular to the horizontal supports, covered by 3/4" ply and 1" Polystyrene Foam. I might consider a better surface than ply, but I don't really know what to look for (assuming particle board and MDF are a bad idea for water reasons?)

For the lumber, should I try to find some kiln dried wood, to reduce possible warping? I know the paint used will affect this too.

For connecting the horizontal elements to the vertical beams, I really would like to just use deck screws and wood glue. I've seen alot of people say that mortise and tenon joints are a must for aquarium loads, but is it really necessary in this case, if 2 deck screws are used per joint?

Also, the front center beam does not touch the floor in my plan (to allow better access to return pumps etc), instead it will be suspended from the horizontal beam that is going to be on top of the corner 4x4s. The rear-center beam will be resting on brick foundation. I am thinking this will be just fine, and that this design will have more than enough support, but wanted to gather some other opinions.

I also would like to hear people's thoughts on the painting process. This stand system will be enclosed and sealed, and will be vented from the house HVAC (probably going to pay somebody to do that for me).

What paint should I use for the wood? Should I paint each before assembly (ie, even all sides of the vertical 4x4s?) so that every surface is coated with moisture protection?

I'm thinking of also adding a dehumififier exhaust to prevent constant humidity in there from taking a part in wood warping.

Also, I bought a bunch of 'handi foam' thinking I was going to use it to make fake rocks. After experimenting I'm doing to do something else for my fake rocks. Would this handi foam be the perfect thing to insulate the closet seams after I put drywall on the outside?

Thanks!
Ryan

[stugray]

Good plan ( Great pic! ).

Since you are only really supporting as much as a 180G tank, it's not bad.

I would even say that there is no need for the rear vertical to rest on the foundation and it could prove bad long term if things shift. I have a section of concrete slab that has dropped 2"..... If you have parts resting on slab & other parts on footer wall??

I would just use 2X6 for the bottom-most horiz and 2X4 for the rest and call that good. Also, you could use some "simpson" style joist connectors from HD or Lowes to connect the horiz to the vert.

Stu

[RedEDGE2k1]

It is grossly overbuilt, but we all know how that goes around here.

[RyanBrucks]

"I would even say that there is no need for the rear vertical to rest on the foundation and it could prove bad long term if things shift."

This picture of my 35G frag (finished yesterday, still need pvc drilled for 'overflow'), shows what the lower garage wall is made of.



a large portion of my home's load bearing beams are on that wall so I sure hope it won't shift 2"!!

Hard to tell from that photo, but the cinderblock and brick are coplanar, and on top of the brick is a 1.5" deep shelf. Above that is what I believe to be a 2x6(or 2x10) on its side, and another 1.5" deep shelf on top of that.

For the rear vertical supports, when i said 4x4, I really meant two 2x4's bolted and glued together, since that will fit perfectly on the two 1.5" shelves of brick and lumber, saving me the space I need to fit the stand in the proposed location. Basically all the rear support would be on the foundation wall, and all the front support would be on the garage slab.

But you're basically saying that my garage slab, and that foundation wall could each have different levels of sag over time? Would it really be best to have all the supports on the garage slab rather than mixing?

Would using woodscrews to attach the rear vertical supports to the vertical studs in my wall be a good idea?

[stugray]

RyanBrucks

You got my point perfectly.

The brick wall ( what I referred to as a footer ) should not move at all.
But, the slab floats up and down a bit as the house settles ( and seasonally in some regions ). So... I wouldnt support anything like a tank bridging between the two.

Stu

[RyanBrucks]

it wont change the design much to have 2x4s come down in front of the brick. I'll probably still have 2x4s up on the brickwork, but nothing will be supported by them, they will just be there make everything flush and give me a corner to fasten drywall to (this is going to be a 'closet' after all).

Thanks for the tip, glad I posted here, as always!

Ryan

[RyanBrucks]

I just did some better measuring of my garage floor, and its not as level as I thought.

I guess you could say its planar (flat and smooth), but it slopes downwards towards the opening (like most are). It drops by approximately 3/16" for every 16" span. This comes out to 0.14" per foot.

My geometry skills are a bit rusty but I tried to convert that into degrees using Sin(angle) = opposite/hypotenuse and I think its ~0.67 degrees of slope.

I only have a circular saw; I doubt I could cut lumber that precicely. Would a miter saw be able to cut that precicely, or should I just use shims?

Ryan

[hemi18]

shims for sure..or a laser from NASA............

[DB06]

I would not cut the lumber to match your uneven floor. Instead make it square with solid joints and then install levelers on each foot (4x4) that contacts the concrete. Have to be honest, don't like that design where you are hanging the weight from the top vs supporting it from beneath. Will cause more stress on the joints. If it were mine, I would ensure both of those center vertical pieces were also load bearing (i.e. touching the floor). Overall, looks to be approx 90 " wide and at least 60" to the top rack w/ approx 185 gallons on it, not including the weight of the 4 different tanks.

I think all lumber you buy now adays is kiln dried or pressure treated. Recommend stay away from pressure treated for a tank stand. Yes, paint it to protect it. Latex, in multiple coats will work and then finish it off with a polycrylic. Or, you can go with oil base and then polyurethane or spar urethane. Painting each piece before assembly is really going the extra step....I think I would just assemble and then paint.

Just my 2 cents.

[RyanBrucks]

It's actually 96" wide (needed to have enough room to actually remove the individual tanks with doors and the center beam


I'm not quite sure how to make the horizontal supports level without having the vertical beams contacting the floor at their final height. At 96" width, the beam on the left will have to be 1.12" longer than the one on the right (or jacked up with ).

Guess I can only use a square and not a level if I do it that way?

[Davidb6]

This is a great space saving idea. Are you concerned about it being in a garage with fumes, dust and temp swings?

Very interested in seeing how you'll finish it off to control / contain the environment.

This would be a great idea to solve my space problem.

[DB06]

Use something like these at the bottom of the 4x4s to level the entire stand


Check Rockler.com and search for lifting levelers. I don't like this particular leveler since it is not bolted to the bottom of the 4x4. It bolts to the side....however, it gives you the idea.

Again, build the stand as if were sitting on a level surface, the levelers will compensate for the uneven floor. Just ensure you get a heavy duty variety that can handle the weight and they are mounted properly.

[RyanBrucks]

I also noticed that about a 3/4" strip of the garage concrete is pretty rough and uneeven where it meets the wall. On average it sticks up about 0.25". Should I make cuts in the bottom of my 4x4s to make room for that?

Also, can anybody suggest to me how to make my horizontal beams at the same level if I don't have a level floor to place the stand on during construction? I know how to make each horizontal span level (obviously by just checking both right angles), but how do I make sure that opposite horizontal supports are at the same height without a level surface?

I mentioned this above but I'm planning to make this an enclosed closet, with drywall and sliding doors. If I want to seal the drywall against the garage wall (which the tank will not be fastened to), will that be fine if the 'stand/closet' is just sitting on support feet?

I was thinking of laying a 2x4 flat between each 4x4 support, and bolting those down into the garage floor slab to keep it in place.

Thoughts?

Ryan

[RyanBrucks]

"Are you concerned about it being in a garage with fumes, dust and temp swings?"

well its going to be completely skinned in drywall, sealed with insulation and foam, and will have sealed doors.

I'm lucky because right on the other side of the wall is my AC/heating duct. I think I will T off that line to come into the sump closet, and also might add a dehumidistat fan on an run going back into the house, so that air is always circulating; this should keep the sump closet in rougly the same ballpark temperature range as the house, even when the AC/Heat isn't on. But like I said I'm most likely going to consult an AC professional for that, since I'm not sure what the most efficient way of accomplishing that is.

[cannarella]

Warning long answer ahead... But some good techniques.

So what we have here is a sloped floor that you want to build a level stand.

Here is how I would approach it. First lose the 4x4s and just use 2x4s for everything. 4x4s will twist. When you go to select your 2x4s be very picky and chose the straightest ones without bows, twists, or knots. When you get the lumber home stack it neatly in the garage and put a lot of play sand bags on top to hold it firm. They plat sand is cheep and you can return it later. You want to wait a couple days to let it acclimate to the humidity in the workspace.

As for assembly, I would do it where you have a leg that is full length and then cut equal 2x4s to attach (glue and screw) and hold the shelf 2x4s. Miter saw will be good here for square cuts. Use a piece of scrap 2x4 to set the gap for the shelf support when attaching the leg supports. It would be like putting dados in a 4x4 and that way the weight is transferred directly to a vertical structure and not relying on the sheer strength of the screws. Like it was said before, don’t cut each piece to make it follow the floor slope. I will describe how to find the thickness of the shims you will need later.

So now you have some legs that are glued together with slots for the shelves that are all at the heights you want. You can now cut your shelf supports to length and mark on them where the legs will be attached. I would recommend pre drilling the surface that the screw will go through to bite into the other. This will help it pull together for a tighter fit and better glue joint.

Mark with painter tape where each leg will sit on the floor. You now need to find the straightest piece of wood that you have that is the length and width of your stand. Get/borrow a good 4 foot level. Have some shims hands and on each long row put the board down where the feet will go with the level on top and raise the low end and put shims under it until you get level and measure the distance you raised it. Do this for each long row and for kicks measure each front to back row the same way. Hopefully it is level in that direction.

Once you get all your shims cut from scrap wood assemble the stand with the shelf supports screwing and gluing together. Check for square. Do not put in the shelves yet. You need to be able to get in the stand to put the shims in and is will make it lighter. Have a buddy help you move the stand to the area where you marked the feet location and shim it with the measurements taken earlier. With shims installed lay in the plywood shelves (but don’t attach) and put the sand bags you used earlier on the shelves to put some load on them and/or have buddy lay down for a nap on the shelf and check the stands level. Note high or low locations and cut different shims until it is where you want it. If you did all your measuring correctly and were diligent in making all the legs the exact same the stand should be perfectly level.

Once you get the stand perfectly level and the plywood shelves are installed there will be no needs for foam between the shelves and tanks because the tanks should be equally bearing weight on the shelves.

Sorry for the long winded, grammatical, and spelling errors but I hope this helps. This is basically how I built my sump stand. I was a little more anal in my machining processes but the above description should work as well. Click my red house to see my build up pics.

[RyanBrucks]

Wow thanks for the detailed info! that helps alot.

Just to make sure I'm understanding your support suggestion, is this image an accurate reproduction of your joint idea?



If so, the way I understood you is that the cut up 2x4 support should be nailed and glued to the full-vertical 2x4 before putting in the horizontal beams.

Intuitively, it seems to me that only the bottom-most vertical 2x4 section should go on first, and the rest should wait until the first horizontal support goes in, so that it can rest on that for a tighter fit. Is that wrong?

Thanks,
Ryan

[cannarella]

Yes, that is exactly what I am talking about.

I guess you could do the first shelf and then build it up. That would take into account for any thickness difference in the 2x4, but the difference would be very small.

Think of it like this, on the long outer leg, mark your final heights for all the shelves and then subtract the plywood thickness (it really isn't 3/4") and then the actual width of the 2x4 (should be 3 1/2"). Mark a line there and measure from the bottom to that line to get your first short cut. So if the first shelf finish height is 36" subtract the plywood thickness 23/32 and the 2x4 witch 3 1/2 and your first short should be 31 17/32. For the next shelf say at 48" you would measure out to the top from the bottom of the leg and mark it. Then go through the same routine but this time subtract the 36 for the shelf below. So 48"-(23/32")-(3 1/2")-36"= 7 17/32". Repeat for the next.

The advantage of assembling the whole think at once is there will be less racking when you are moving it around. It will be real rigid with the dry glue and screws. Use a speed square to make all your measurements so you know that everything is lining up.

When they are all done you should be able to take a strait 2x4 and put it in the dado on all legs and they will all be parallel to each other and the same length.

They will look somethink like this but note I planed my 2x4 down to they had nice crisp corners, I am anal like that and I have the tools. I glued the 2x4 together first and then routed out the dado. You are doing the same thing by using a spacer for the shelf support and adding the short pieces. See how in the one with the board running through it the dado behind it is perfectly lined up. Let me know if you have any more questions.

[RyanBrucks]

thanks you've been very helpful.

I like the idea of planing the 2x4s, but I don't have a planer.

I got a benchtop delta jointer from lowes. According to my oneway Multiguage, the infeed and outfeed tables fluctuate by up to around 0.01" in places so I'm thinking of returning it, considering most people recommend you get the jointer blades within 0.005". What good does it do if the outfeed table is off by more? Is that being too anal; can I safely use that jointer to prep all my 2x4 lumber for better fit?

[RyanBrucks]

also, I noticed that you suggest cutting room for the 2x4 plus the 3/4" ply, but in your photos it looks like you only put the 2x4s through?

I assume it doesn't really matter either way? I was just going to use wood glue to put the ply down.

[cannarella]

Your right, my brain fart...

[RyanBrucks]

been busy,

4 acrylic tanks done. still need to drill 3 of them.


Milled (planed, ripped, mitered) all wood to length. I'm currently assembling the support legs with the screws and glue.




My 2 car garage won't be seeing any cars anytime soon.

I don't have a jointer yet, so I was very picky about getting flat boards from the select bin at lowes. musta sorted through an entire pallete, but was able to get boards flat enough to run through the planar.
one edge was of each piece was ripped on the table saw after planing, and then the opposite edge was planed (and then a light pass on the ripped side).

I think the stand will be done and painted tomorrow. Then I will route the doorframe for the sliding doors I will be making next, and then drywall the stand and seal it in. It's my pre-newyears resolution

Ryan

[cannarella]

Looks like a nice milled pile of stock.

[RyanBrucks]

Happy New Years!!!!!!

unfortunately, I came just short of my goal. Front and back of the frame assembled, but didn't connect them yet as I still have to screw on the horizontal beams that connect the frame and support under the tanks.

the joints all fit together pretty darn tight. I had to use a rubber mallet to get some to go, but I'll have it done in the morning/afternoon.



but seriously, my back is killing me

Ryan

[Kentanner11]

Looks great!!!!!

[Cuby2k]

Back hurting? I recommend hydrocodone and hot tub.

Not sure if it was mentioned or not but all good carpenters that I know recommend three screws/nails per joint. Tends to limit the potential rocking of the joint. Although with the way you have encapsulated the pieces I don't think you have too much to worry about. Well, except for your back.