Elegance Coral theory

[elegance coral]

I'm rollin here! I can't catch my breath!

You just couldn't resist could you? Now you know why I kept going back. It gives you the desire to make them understand but, Like you said, They're not going to get it. In order to understand this they would need at least a basic understanding of the relationship between coral and their algae. The first person that responded to your post over there does not posses this understanding. If he does not understand why a coral would not be damaged by light until after it is removed from the environment it lives in, he has no chance of understand this issue. We can not help this person when they are argumentative and unwilling to learn. With the vast amount of information there is in this hobby we can continue to learn until the day we die and we still won't know it all. The key to continued learning is to keep an open mind. When someone closes their mind to new information or new ideas their learning stops. This is what you see over there. Regardless of the facts or amount of evidence that's presented the blind faith in a reef god will override reality. You should take the advice you gave me and continue the work you have been doing with the Goniapora. It is a waist of time to talk to people that don't want to hear what your saying. I appreciate what you did, but your time and mine is better spent on the animals we care for and the people that truly wish to keep them alive and healthy. Of course, you could continue to help me out like you have . At least I appreciate the time you have spent to help with this project.

Thanks again, Darrell

[John Kelly]

I just wanted to paint a picture of how everything could fit together. The effects of oxidative stress are definitely detrimental to a coral on all levels, especially the microscopic level, but those same effects are also manifested in the reactive behavior of the coral, which is what your research is based on. Unfortunately, coral ethologists are rare within this hobby and microbiologists are plentiful.

The problem with microbiologists is that they automatically apply Koch's postulates to every problem in the hobby because every problem looks like a "disease" to them. The desire to tear things apart to find a cause or cure, pathogen or drug, comes naturally. The fact is that most "diseases" in this hobby have been prevented and cured through a change in handling and husbandry habits and techniques.

[elegance coral]

The professionals that have studied this problem have found exactly what I would expect them to find in these dead or dieing corals. They have found damage to cell walls, or cellular architecture. They have found many organisms feeding on this tissue, from what was simply called microbes, to bacteria, fungus, and many other unknown organisms. Examining dead animals like mammals is a great way to determine how they died. Mammals have complexed circulatory systems and many different organs that are responsible for different jobs. We can cut these dead animals open and discover what organ failed and why. This process does not work well with corals. Corals do not die like mammals do. If a mammal's heart stops the entire animal dies. With corals, they die cell by cell. It is more of a chain reaction. It is rare, outside of a catastrophic event, for an entire coral to die all at once, like mammal's do. They do not possess a complext circulatory system or the many organs that can fail like we do. Examining a dead coral is not an easy way to determine how it died. What has been found in dead Elegance corals only tells us that mother nature is working as she has sense life began on this planet. Animals die and many organisms quickly begin to break down the tissues. There has not been a link discovered between these organisms and the cause of the corals death. Simply finding these organisms tells us nothing we didn't already know. In a case like the Elegance coral problem where we have many, if not most, of the corals coming into the hobby suffering from the same symptoms and dieing, the best way, in my opinion, to determine the cause of the corals death would be with living corals. We would need to discover what brings on these symptoms. If it is a highly contagious species specific pathogen we should be able to stock an aquarium with healthy Elegance corals, observe them over time to insure they are healthy, then introduce a coral showing these symptoms and the healthy corals should become ill. I have a 29gl aquarium with 10 Elegance corals in it. Some I have had for well over a year. Some are very healthy, some very ill, and some in recovery. I have repeatedly introduced corals that were swollen or completely withdrawn into their skeleton. The only time I have noticed an adverse reaction from the healthy corals in the tank was when one of the corals had an active infection and tissue was decomposing. Even then the healthy corals while they would not expand fully did not come down with the infection themselves. After the infected tissue was removed from the system the healthy corals returned to their normal expansion. The symptom of an over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles, or completely withdrawing into their skeleton is not contagious. I have mixed corals showing these symptoms with healthy corals many times over the past year and a half and have never noticed a reaction from the healthy corals in the system. This to me rules out the possibility of a highly contagious species specific Pathogen being the cause of the problem. Examining dead Elegance corals can not prove or disprove the involvement of a highly contagious species specific pathogen unless one had been discovered. There is no known organism we can point to and say it is a highly contagious species specific pathogen. No one has even come close to proving its existence.

[Mental1]

I really like what you are doing Darrell and I hope you don't mind if I play devils advocate. By the way I am a super novice newby who knows nothing trying to do this in a friendly way. Is it possible that when the elegance corals are harvested from the wild that based on the water conditions they come out of, they release this pathogen which only survives long enough to infect other corals in this initial tank? Then it is not contagious after that because the pathogen dies off but the corals are infected and secondary diseases set in? What if it cannot survive in different water which would explain why your corals don't infect each other? Is there anyway you could get a coral sample straight from the wild and see what happens? This seems like the only possible hole that can still be argued against your theory if in fact it is a plausible hole. Have you already thought of this and have done it?

[elegance coral]

Originally posted by Mental1
I really like what you are doing Darrell and I hope you don't mind if I play devils advocate. By the way I am a super novice newby who knows nothing trying to do this in a friendly way. Is it possible that when the elegance corals are harvested from the wild that based on the water conditions they come out of, they release this pathogen which only survives long enough to infect other corals in this initial tank? Then it is not contagious after that because the pathogen dies off but the corals are infected and secondary diseases set in? What if it cannot survive in different water which would explain why your corals don't infect each other? Is there anyway you could get a coral sample straight from the wild and see what happens? This seems like the only possible hole that can still be argued against your theory if in fact it is a plausible hole. Have you already thought of this and have done it?

I don't mind people questioning what I'm saying in these threads. In fact, people questioning me has helped a great deal. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong. I am searching for the truth. Unfortunately what I have found contradicts what many are saying about this problem.

One problem I find with the hypothesis above is that this condition has not been reported in the wild. In order for this to work they would have to repeatedly collect infected corals in order to contaminate the other corals in the holding tanks. If there were that many contaminated corals in the wild, I would think it would have been reported by now. Another problem would be that I can cause these symptoms to appear in my corals. If I lengthen the photo period, increase the PAR, or raise the temp my corals will begin to swell and withdraw their tentacles. If I keep the lighting as it is the corals continue to recover. They grow, their sting becomes much stronger, and their ability to feed improves. In a case like this we need to look at all the information that is available to us. Even if we dismiss everything I have seen in my system, the evidence does not support a pathogen theory. If we apply our basic understanding of corals in general, it would lead us to believe that a change in environment is the problem. The only reason the pathogen theory has gained the support it has is because of who is behind it and not the evidence involved. There is no highly contagious species specific pathogen. The reason they have been unable to find this organism is because it does not exist.

[Mental1]

Well - we also showed that with my Elegance -- it was unhappy for two reasons: not in the sand and too much light. So are you saying that these symptoms are only found in captivity? Is Eric the expert you are referring to?

[elegance coral]

Yes. These symptoms are only found in captivity. They do show up very quickly after collection. There are many "experts" that agree with the pathogen theory. I was not trying to single out Eric. He has been, until recently, the most outspoken one on the subject though.

[Mental1]

Well I am ready to hop on your bandwagon then -- I also proved it in my tank. It is doing pretty well. Sometimes the mouth is open quite wide -- what is that an indicator of? Sometimes the mouths just look like a little volcano pushing out, then other times it is light colored, oval and kind of ribbed looking. Am I doing a good job of describing this? Just wondering of there is a significance...

[dla2000]

I got another elegance coral yesterday afternoon. It just came in and was open pretty good, a lot small then my last one, but looks healthy. I didn’t waste no time and started feeding it krill that night and it took it. Here’s a pic of the elegance about 30 mins. in the tank.

[elegance coral]

looks real good for only 30 minutes in the tank. How is it doing now? It's also great to hear that its eating already. Sounds like you got a keeper this time.

[dla2000]

I just feed it some silversides and watch it take them.
My atinic are on for 12 hours and the 50/50 are on for 5 hours. So far no swelling. The lights are still high off the tank, when do you think I should bring it down a bit?

[syrinx]

I appreciate the work that you have done, and it seems to be a good avenue to go down. I have had my own misgivings about the "pathogen" being the problem in these corals. I am a long time propigator, and I remember when halides came out, and the protien skimming thing really took off- the elegances started to have problems. In fact tanks that had kept healthy Es for years with UG filters, crushed coral and normal output flo bulbs- suddenly had problems when the upgrades started. As far as other research goes, I have read them- and find them lacking. I was also disappointed in the one where the fund drive was started and nothing ever came of it. If someone wants to open a tinfoil hat shop- I am all for them doing it- but I am not going to finance it. Others chose to and now all there is- is half finished research and hypothisis- that others choose to use as facts to dissuade further study. Keep up the good work- keep learning and sharing- and keep yourself grounded and real. Only people who feel themselves to be experts have trouble relating and educating. People that are interested in continually learning from anyone and anything they can are the ones that share their knowledge while doing so and thus are the true educators.

[dla2000]

Originally posted by elegance coral
I'm more interested in your feeding. If your willing, I would like to see a little experiment. Try wiggling a small piece of shrimp or fish in its tentacles as if it were a small fish struggling to escape. The Elegance will grab it and put it in its mouth. A day or two later it may contract a little to dispose of any undigested food, but it will come right back. Before you start use a referance point in the tank to note how much the polup expandes. Feed the coral once a week for 8 weeks. At the end of 8 weeks check your referance points to see if the polup is expanding more then it was in the begining. I think you may be shocked at the results. If you don't want to try this because your Elegance is alive and seems to be doing well I understand. I just thought it would be interesting.
Thanks for your input.

I'll help you with this. I have been feeding my elegance coral for two days. I plan on doing this everyday. I don't want the elegance to get a chance to get weak on me. What do you think?

[elegance coral]

Originally posted by dla2000
I'll help you with this. I have been feeding my elegance coral for two days. I plan on doing this everyday. I don't want the elegance to get a chance to get weak on me. What do you think?

Don't feed your Elegance every day. Depending on the size of the food and the size of the Elegance, it may take several days to fully digest it's meal. You want to give the coral time to digest it's first meal before you try to feed it again. With your coral I would try feeding it two or three 1/4 inch pieces of shrimp or fish once a week. The size of the Elegance corals mouths is a good indicator as to the size of food you should be feeding. Spread the food out, like one at one end, one in the middle, and one at the other end. Trying to feed the coral every day will eventually just stress it out. After the polyp has grown you can begin offering fewer and larger food items.

[dla2000]

Originally posted by elegance coral
Don't feed your Elegance every day. Depending on the size of the food and the size of the Elegance, it may take several days to fully digest it's meal. You want to give the coral time to digest it's first meal before you try to feed it again. With your coral I would try feeding it two or three 1/4 inch pieces of shrimp or fish once a week. The size of the Elegance corals mouths is a good indicator as to the size of food you should be feeding. Spread the food out, like one at one end, one in the middle, and one at the other end. Trying to feed the coral every day will eventually just stress it out. After the polyp has grown you can begin offering fewer and larger food items.

Ok.
But wouldn't the elegance coral just reject the food if it is full?
I have been feeding it for 3 days now. The next feeding will be saturday. Thanks.

I'm just very happy that it is taking the food. My lights are still way high off the tank.

[elegance coral]

I would start moving the lights down now. How does the coral look? Is it expanding well when the lights come on and withdrawing slightly when they go off?

Yes, eventually the coral will stop feeding. Over feeding an Elegance can cause it to actually not receive as much nutrition as it would with regular feeding in my opinion. If the coral has a half digested meal inside it and you feed it again in the same mouth it may regurgitate all of the food. The food enters and the undigested particles are discharged through the same opening. Elegance corals are not like us, where we can eat meal after meal and it just passes out the other end. There is a cycle of feeding and discharging that takes place with these corals. I do not believe that these corals can discharge remains of one meal and retain another meal. When it comes time to discharge the remains of a meal, I believe the coral discharges the entire content of that "stomach". To keep this cycle functioning properly I believe we would need to give the coral time to digest its meal and discharge any indigestible food before we try to feed them again. This is simply my opinion based on my experience and not proven scientific fact.

[dla2000]

Originally posted by elegance coral
I would start moving the lights down now. How does the coral look? Is it expanding well when the lights come on and withdrawing slightly when they go off?

Yes, eventually the coral will stop feeding. Over feeding an Elegance can cause it to actually not receive as much nutrition as it would with regular feeding in my opinion. If the coral has a half digested meal inside it and you feed it again in the same mouth it may regurgitate all of the food. The food enters and the undigested particles are discharged through the same opening. Elegance corals are not like us, where we can eat meal after meal and it just passes out the other end. There is a cycle of feeding and discharging that takes place with these corals. I do not believe that these corals can discharge remains of one meal and retain another meal. When it comes time to discharge the remains of a meal, I believe the coral discharges the entire content of that "stomach". To keep this cycle functioning properly I believe we would need to give the coral time to digest its meal and discharge any indigestible food before we try to feed them again. This is simply my opinion based on my experience and not proven scientific fact.

Well the mouths are kinda sunk in, not all the way down, just slightly. You can see them and the polyp part of the coral sometimes act as if was reaching.

I plan on bring the lights down tonight when they go off.

I'll post a pic of it tomorrow.

[dla2000]

oops

[dla2000]

Here's a pic of what the elegance coral looks like right now. To me it looks like it is reaching.



It don't look like this all the time.

[elegance coral]

Has it opened more after you lowered the lights?

[elegance coral]

Originally posted by syrinx
I appreciate the work that you have done, and it seems to be a good avenue to go down. I have had my own misgivings about the "pathogen" being the problem in these corals. I am a long time propigator, and I remember when halides came out, and the protien skimming thing really took off- the elegances started to have problems. In fact tanks that had kept healthy Es for years with UG filters, crushed coral and normal output flo bulbs- suddenly had problems when the upgrades started. As far as other research goes, I have read them- and find them lacking. I was also disappointed in the one where the fund drive was started and nothing ever came of it. If someone wants to open a tinfoil hat shop- I am all for them doing it- but I am not going to finance it. Others chose to and now all there is- is half finished research and hypothisis- that others choose to use as facts to dissuade further study. Keep up the good work- keep learning and sharing- and keep yourself grounded and real. Only people who feel themselves to be experts have trouble relating and educating. People that are interested in continually learning from anyone and anything they can are the ones that share their knowledge while doing so and thus are the true educators.

WOW! Thanks for the kind words and the advice. I'm not trying to get people to think of me as one of the "reef gods". I am simply a hobbyist like everyone else. Most people seem to think that I'm a little obsessed with Elegance corals though . Elegance corals represent a very very small portion of the hobby. I got my first Elegance about 18 years ago. My infatuation has continued to grow from then. I have spent this time learning as much as I could about this coral. I have had them spawn and I have attempted to raise the larvae. I will soon be resuming this research. When it became obvious that no one was going to truly investigate the Elegance coral problem, I felt that I had to do something. I had to know for myself how to keep these corals alive. At the time everyone was saying it was a disease and they were all doomed. I could not take this as the true fate of this incredible animal. All I'm trying to do now is let people know what causes this problem, and how to give their coral the best possible chance to survive. Nothing will change with this coral until people realize what the problem is. If they don't change the way they collect and house these corals we will continue to have these problems.


I don't remember when MH's first came out, but I can remember when they were very rare in the hobby. I had to mail order my first MH light bulb because you could not find them in central Florida at the time. 5000 was the highest kelvin temp available, and I got an old used high pressure sodium ballast to power the light with. I mounted it in the center of a standard 55gl tank, because they didn't put center braces on tanks back then.

[checkinhawk]

elegance coral.....can you give me a little advice.our LFS has some very nice aussie elegance and id really like to get one for my new tank.the problem is i think i may have too much flow and lighting,plus i have a BB setup.is it possible to have one with the BB?for lighting i have three 250w 14k mh and two 48" vho actinics.flow is 2 darts one on a loop and one return and a wavebox.is the flow and lighting too much?

[dla2000]

Originally posted by elegance coral
Has it opened more after you lowered the lights?

Nope looks the same. I just lowered it about 5".

But, right now it is really small. A little while ago it balled up (not swelled up) and started to pump a few times and little brown stuff came up through the tentacles and the water current took it away.

What do the elegance coral's waste look like when it expel it out?
I see some small bown stuff on the elegance.

I'll post a pic in a few mins.

[dla2000]

Here's the pic.



I think it was just expelling its waste. What do you think.

[elegance coral]

Originally posted by checkinhawk
elegance coral.....can you give me a little advice.our LFS has some very nice aussie elegance and id really like to get one for my new tank.the problem is i think i may have too much flow and lighting,plus i have a BB setup.is it possible to have one with the BB?for lighting i have three 250w 14k mh and two 48" vho actinics.flow is 2 darts one on a loop and one return and a wavebox.is the flow and lighting too much?

I haven't seen or heard of the Aussie Elegance corals having the problems the Indo Elegance have. If you can find a spot that is not directly under one of the MH's the lighting should be okay. I keep all my Elegance in a BB tank, and have been doing so for many years. As long as the tissue around the top edge of the skeleton in not pressed against the rocks the coral will be fine. I don't know what size your new tank is so its hard to tell how strong the flow is. If you can find a spot that is slightly protected from strong flow, I think it's doable. The flow should be strong enough to just move the tentacles. If the flow is so strong it would move the whole polyp I wouldn't try an Elegance. Good luck, and let us know how it goes if you get one.