Is our hobby driving the horror?

[MCary]

Its pretty simple. The topic started on a philosophical note. The title of the thread itself used the word horror. The question was one of reefers reponsibilities but actually more one of reefers morality and what they can do to feel better about themselves, because lets face it, nothing any of us do will make 2 cents difference and reefers are not going to organize so its a hypothetical or philosophical issue.

If your going to drill in that well you have to accept the foundations for anyone moralities. As misguided as Balduron is he certainly has a right to present his perspective and the origin of his feelings.

Your last post was alot more unnecessary. You could have unsubscribed without the comment.

Mike

[tigerarmy40]

I dont beleive in reading the first post that is started from a philisophical point at all! you guys decided it was a rediculous idea and took it the direction you wanted to!!!! and theres a diference in talking about ones a perspective and turning an entire thread into a religous discussion!



"If your going to drill in that well you have to accept the foundations for anyone moralities. As misguided as Balduron is he certainly has a right to present his perspective and the origin of his feelings."


"Your last post was alot more unnecessary. You could have unsubscribed without the comment."

wouldnt this be a direct contradiction of your statement just before it?

I also have the right to state my perspective and the origin of my feelings.....and I feel that you guys hijacked this thread on about page three!!! LOL,

[Balduron]

Thank you MCary.

[cyclebrkr]

Not to be rude, but i really don't see the point in bringing religion into this. As was stated above, this is a moral issue. The destruction of the reefs is something ALL hobbiests in this trade should worry about, ....heck, everyone on this earth should worry about it! You have a right to voice your beliefs and/or opinions, but the destruction of the reefs, global warming, etc...all the harmful effects us as humans are inflicting on this earth are REAL! Your god has not been proven or not proven to exist, so i don't think that kind of message belongs as a part of this thread.

[truecrow]

Originally posted by tigerarmy40
I dont beleive in reading the first post that is started from a philisophical point at all! you guys decided it was a rediculous idea and took it the direction you wanted to!!!! and theres a diference in talking about ones a perspective and turning an entire thread into a religous discussion!



"If your going to drill in that well you have to accept the foundations for anyone moralities. As misguided as Balduron is he certainly has a right to present his perspective and the origin of his feelings."


"Your last post was alot more unnecessary. You could have unsubscribed without the comment."

wouldnt this be a direct contradiction of your statement just before it?

I also have the right to state my perspective and the origin of my feelings.....and I feel that you guys hijacked this thread on about page three!!! LOL,

I thought you unsubscribed.

[Balduron]

Well, Cyclebrkr, as you stated,

You have a right to voice your beliefs and/or opinions

As does everyone. and if you read my original post, I did just that:

When I think about the reefs, and the disrespect that is shown to them, I remember one thing, Who created them. That being said, I also remember that I am not big enough to make a huge positive impact, but the Creator is, and If I listen to God's directions as to what I am to do(After all, he did command mankind to "subdue" the earth) I know that He did not mean to DESTROY it, but to "use it" in a fitting manner.

And I also added what I felt was a viable solution to the problem, all be it too late:

"use it" in a fitting manner

I did not bring up weather "my" God existed or not, I just made that statement, furthermore, any "religious" converdsation was brought on buy other people questioning my statement. I only abbliged them by answering them.

If you like, start another thread in a more appropriate place and by all means provide a link here and I will be more than happy to discuss if "my" God exists or not. I did not bring that issue up either.

[MCary]

all the harmful effects us as humans are inflicting on this earth are REAL!

Whenever I read this self loathing crap it makes me laugh. Especially when it comes from California. Really hate being human huh? The problem is, it lacks free thinking and perspective. I live in Montana and listen to outsiders tell me how it is here all the time without ever being here. I hear about drilling in ANWAR and look at the pictures of the mirror lakes and mountains, although having been there I know that those mountains and lakes are 1000 miles away. The first animal placed on the endangered species list was the Alligator, even though there were over 1.5 million of them at the time. They were put there because of misleading articles and stories. Any Cajun could have told you they were full of crap. I've never seen all this distruction of the reefs. I would love to get the perspective the man who makes his living there. Instead of an article from Time magazine on Earth day.

And directly responding to your post. Harm as you use the term is relative. Damming up the Colorado caused harm to the animals in the watershed, but did tremendous good for us. California provides a HUGE amount of the fresh produce consumed by Americans. Thanks to irrigation from the dams. The dam provides a HUGE amount of clean electrical power. Flood control has saved HUGE amount of people and property. And it provided a habitat that many animals are adapting to or moved into. Destroying the dam in 100 years would destroy an entire ecosystem that had developed.

Don't beat yourself up so much for being human. Humans are animals too and like everyother animal will fight to survive and adjust the environment to fit its needs within the realm of its capabilities. Other animals have destroyed the ecosystem for competing animals. The only difference is humans care and try to do something about it when they can.

I know how important it is for most to belong to a group. And the easiest way to do that is to join the fringe and pound their drums. Personally I prefer to be a loner and think for myself.

Mike

[vitz]

maybe there should first be a consensus as to what defines 'moral' ?

the issue is not that this hobby even comes close to being a factor in reef survival- it doesn't-

the issue is- should we hold ourselves to a 'higher standard' of behavior, as regards respect for the natural environment we depend on?


we can't very well complain about overfishing, and the food industry's use of cyanide, if we contribute to those issues ourselves, regardless of whether or not it makes a practical difference

[Randall_James]

Originally posted by vitz


we can't very well complain about overfishing, and the food industry's use of cyanide, if we contribute to those issues ourselves,

I think you are sadly misinformed on this subject...

[Balduron]

Hmm, I missed this question:

Before Jesus the followers of the God of Abraham sacrificed animals. So I don't know, why were they sacrificing goats?

Well, even in Jesus's time the Jewish people still sacrificed animals, Goats had some interesting reasons for being sacrificed. In Leviticus 16:1-34 it talks about a bull and 2 goats, The bullis for Aaron's(The high priest appointed by God as Moses's aid) sin offering. The 2 goats are to have lots cast for them, one is to be slaughtered for the sin offering for the people. The live goat becomes the "scapegoat"(ever wonder where that term came from?? it is right our of the Bible) And although the sins of the Jewish people were "attoned" for when they slaughtered one goat, they had to be carried away, so Aaron would place his hands on the live goat and confess all the sins of the Israelites and place them on the goats head. Then the goat is taken into the desert in the care of a man, and he shall take it into t solitary place and release it.

Not even. It means conquer and use however you see fit. It places dominion over the animals. Do whatever you want to them free of responsibility.

YOu could take it t hat way, for it does say"...Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea abd the birds of the air and over every creature that moves on the ground."

However, I think that if you take the character of God into account, that is not true. Would you want your children to missuse the things that you have given them?? how aobut the people that they associate with, would that be ok??

YOu see,

maybe there should first be a consensus as to what defines 'moral' ?

I totally agree with Vitz on this, and that is what I have done, I decided to select a standard as to what "moral" is. A standard is somethng that is used to measure somethng, like a ruler or a measuring cup. If we all used differnet rulers on a construction job, for instance, nothing would fit corectley. I have chosen God's standard in the Bible to describe how we should treat the reef, and even our pets. Although i did not understand the responsability reguarding the keeping of fish when I entered the hobby, I quickley learned of my mistake. We can make any standrd of morality, however, if we each chose our own "standard" how is it a viable standard, we all think that it should be differnet. Therefore I maintain:

I remember one thing, Who created them. That being said, I also remember that I am not big enough to make a huge positive impact, but the Creator is, and If I listen to God's directions as to what I am to do(After all, he did command mankind to "subdue" the earth) I know that He did not mean to DESTROY it, but to "use it" in a fitting manner.

And remember:

As misguided as Balduron is he certainly has a right to present his perspective and the origin of his feelings.

However, I did not bring these issues up.

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by Balduron
I did not bring up weather "my" God existed or not, I just made that statement, furthermore, any "religious" converdsation was brought on buy other people questioning my statement. I only abbliged them by answering them.

Folks, we don't discuss religion on this board.

That goes for everyone - it doesn't matter whether you start the conversation or just continue it, this board is not the place for that.

You're more than welcome to do it somewhere else, though

[vitz]

Originally posted by Randall_James
I think you are sadly misinformed on this subject...

you sir, are very ignorant of my levels of experience in this hobby, industry, and conservation related org.'s (read: ngo).

but i forgive you anyway


my level of informational knowledge on the state of the hobby's collection and transport practices, and the reefs' status world over in general and overall is accurate and up to date,and has been for over 25 years- i assure you

[loveclowns]

My LFS dealer cares very much about the natural reef system. When I started this hobby, he told me that he wasn't going to sell me anything that he thought I couldn't keep alive. And he's done that. I've wanted some fish/corals that wouldn't survive longer than a few days in my tank, and he wouldn't sell them.

His display tanks are awesome. His store has a giant reef aquarium with all sorts of fish/other livestock that he pays a lot of attention to. As far as his stock, he pays as much attention to those tanks as his reef. I am very comfortable with how he manages his store.

[Manderin]

in grade 10 i did a report on the vitality of reefs to our worlds ecosystem, its scary to think what would happen to us withuiot them, they filter out harmful bacteria, are barriers from waves etc. its amazing really

[Randall_James]

Originally posted by vitz
you sir, are very ignorant of my levels of experience in this hobby, industry, and conservation related org.'s (read: ngo).

but i forgive you anyway


my level of informational knowledge on the state of the hobby's collection and transport practices, and the reefs' status world over in general and overall is accurate and up to date,and has been for over 25 years- i assure you

we can't very well complain about overfishing, and the food industry's use of cyanide

You stated the food industry's use of cyanide, where do they use cyanide in fishing? that is right out of left field...

[vitz]

lol-cyanide is a MAJOR substance used in food fishing, and has been for decades- you really need to start doing some research-you may want to read some of the industry forum threads on RDO for some beginning background material-groupers are a known cyanide target species for the food fish industry

[Randall_James]

I hate to break it to you but this is not Indonesia or some third world country. In the US, the volume of fish that is processed and the scrutiny that it is processed under excludes the use of cyanide.

EDIT: do not forget about bleach (also used )

[vitz]

there is no reliable cyanide test available-how can you back that statement up ?

[Thales]

Originally posted by Randall_James
I hate to break it to you but this is not Indonesia or some third world country. In the US, the volume of fish that is processed and the scrutiny that it is processed under excludes the use of cyanide.

EDIT: do not forget about bleach (also used )

Food fish in the US doesn't all come from the US - and there really is no reliable cyanide test.
In FL, I believe one can get a permit for cyanide fishing.

[wds21921]

I like Jobiwan have been in the hobby for many years and I've seen a lot of improvements.
We can't get away from any of us having at least some effect on the enviromental part since we're taking away from it. However small it may be the entertainment part is what it's about.
The benefits are we know or at least understand a little more about it now though. As hobbysists we've evolved somewhat.
Also, many are propogating live corals and breeding many of the captured species of fish. Potentially there could be some very positive effects if we keep going in the overall direction the hobby is headed.

I'm not painting a 'rosy' picture here but while there has been some or a lot of damage due to the hobby (depending on how you look at it), most are willing to act more responsibly when we have the ability (means and knowledge) to maintain things in a more enviromentally friendly way. I think there are even programs or organizations working to put back at least a part of what's been taken. And how much has been lost to enviromental catastrophes or accidents? By making people more aware of it aren't we helping in a sense?

By having these discussions and bring things to light, I think we are at least attempting to act in a responsible way.

No it's not a perfect world and we don't have perfect people in it. If someone wants to rip my posting apart paragraph by paragraph then have at it. I believe however that everyone here would rather at least try to do something constructive and hold a little belief we can all make a more positive change, however large or small it may be.

[Thales]

Originally posted by wds21921


I'm not painting a 'rosy' picture here but while there has been some or a lot of damage due to the hobby (depending on how you look at it), most are willing to act more responsibly when we have the ability (means and knowledge) to maintain things in a more enviromentally friendly way. I think there are even programs or organizations working to put back at least a part of what's been taken. And how much has been lost to enviromental catastrophes or accidents? By making people more aware of it aren't we helping in a sense?

Good post.

I don't agree that most are willing to act more responsibility when they have the means and knowledge to maintain things in a more environmentally way. I actually think very few are willing to put their money where their mouths are. Cheaper usually wins the day. People say the are willing to pay more for net caught fish, but when it comes down to it, they buy the cheaper fish. People know that certain LFS are abattoirs, but they shop there to save a 3 bucks on salt mix. There is a lot of talk about programs and organizations 'putting back' but I have yet to see any of them actually putting back. I also think people can be made aware of environmental catastrophes or accidents without having to collect fish and coral for peoples tanks. From my perspective, there is a lot of good talk, but very little walk.

By having these discussions and bring things to light, I think we are at least attempting to act in a responsible way.

I agree. What often distresses me in these discussions is when people take it personally and snipe at each other.

No it's not a perfect world and we don't have perfect people in it.

You betcha.

If someone wants to rip my posting apart paragraph by paragraph then have at it.

That makes me a little sad. If we are going to discuss this in any meaningful way, I don't see how we cant go point by point. If we don't, misconceptions get glossed over and continued. As long as it isn't attacky and personal, I don't see the harm in examining individual points.

I believe however that everyone here would rather at least try to do something constructive and hold a little belief we can all make a more positive change, however large or small it may be.

Perhaps everyone in this thread, but I don't think that holds for everyone on RC. I also don't know if the belief means much without action behind it.

Good discussion.

[wds21921]

Thanks lefty, you made valid points here.

[G-money]

I couldn't agree more with Lefty here.

With the vast majority of Americans, "cheaper" wins over "better" almost every time. Look at how a place like Wal-Mart can put entire towns out of business. Is Wal-Mart "better" in any sense of the word? Not IMO. But I've never shopped there (and I never will.)

To take that even further, look at how probably 95% of your manufactured goods come from China. Why would we suppose that is? It's ironic that Americans want such low cost goods at the expense of jobs. You ain't buying anything if you aren't working...Whenever I'm presented with something made in America vs. foreign, 9 times out of 10 I'll pay the extra 10-20% and buy American.

The problem with this hobby is that there is alot of transience in it. Advanced life-long reefers are not the majority by any means. It becomes like any other disposable good. "Oh, my fishy died". Face it, the average person doesn't have the empathy for a fish that they would for a dog or cat....or even a bird or reptile. I have to admit, I do everything in my power to keep my fish as healthy and long-lived as possible, but I don't get teary-eyed when they die like I probably would with a dog. Who knows though....a few of my fish are passing the 6 year-old mark so the tears may yet arise...

[wds21921]

I agree G-Money. I won't get on the bandwagon of hating Wal Mart here but that's the price people are willing to pay I'm afraid.
In the hobby I've seen exactly what your talking about in foreign goods as well and many of the promises they've made. That also goes for some of the far-fetched claims of a certain manufacturer I will not name here.

There are more than enough facts to back up yoru statement about Wal Mart too. In my area alone I've seen at least 5 long time businesses close because of them. There initial claim of Wal Mart adding jobs was correct, that was until Wal Mart figures out exactly HOW MANY people they REALLY need to operate the store. It comes down to capitalism becoming canabalistic.
Sorry got way off point here but wanted to put in my 2 cents.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by Lefty
Food fish in the US doesn't all come from the US - and there really is no reliable cyanide test.
In FL, I believe one can get a permit for cyanide fishing.

Quinaldine, not cyanide. Still not all that kosher in my book as the delivery agent's are bad on their own. The permits are for MO only, not foodfish, although, that is not to say some yahoo isn't doing it

We in the US do get shipped some of these reef fish that were caught with cyanide. The food fish use is far larger reaching then MO use, by leaps and bounds. It takes a lot of juice to take down a 5' grouper (if one can be found anymore).

FWIW, my knowledge on this isn't from NGO papers, or articles, but rather from people that lived there and worked very closely with the villagers.