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#101
11/03/2005, 12:25 PM
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It seems to me there is a disconnect between a village in Bali and the hobbyists - the village doesn't sell to hobbyists, it sells to wholesalers. The system is not set up to deliver the ethical exporters product to the people who would actually care to buy it. Instead, those products have to compete for bottom line costs instead of value added costs.
I don't see a good way to deal with this issue. Steve? 
__________________
The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. |
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#102
11/03/2005, 12:38 PM
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Business short term mindset
Lefty,
Your right. That disconnect has long prevented a more eco-friendly evolution in the trade. Business folks seem to think that the eco-driven theme is too weak to improve sales among retailers who in turn think its too weak to improve sales to hobbyists...so they settle for the image enhancement of semi conservation and P.R. statements like the MAC-donalds position on the environment. Everyone wants netcaught imperator angels....few want them if they cost more. Hobbyists who care may assume that they represent more buying power then they have ever delivered. I really wish there would be an uprising of demand and demand for action to go with the puff and shallow eco-speak. This is perhaps a false hope and thats why I really think the field reform approach is best. Reform must be for tropical countries interests as we have a hard time reconciling our true long term interests vis a vis marinelife with our short term lusts. Steve PS. Business people can accelerate great changes if they will just do it...but....its rare to find any who would change a little behavior if it risked any uncertainty. |
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#104
11/16/2005, 11:59 PM
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So far,
Tank raised fish are to the industry what backyard tomato growing is to feeding the nation. Growing what is easiest...ie fish w/ large eggs and larvae is a far cry from growing what the trade would actually need to make any difference...ie culturing commercial quantities of tangs, butterflies, angels, wrasses, damsels, groupers, bats, anglers,triggers etc. Then again is the elite pro-laboratory sector vs. the poor fisherman quandry. Fisherman will do something with the sea. At least w/ tropicals we have a say and an input into it to moderate catch methods. All cultured livestock [ a myth and impossibility in any readers lifetime ] will simply divert the fisherman into food fishing and probably greater impact on the reefs we say we wish to "save." Funny way to pretend to save anything. Cultured stuff is a placebo at best and a cheap deodorant in lieu of a shower. It is something...but a foundation of the industry it is not. Unlocking the secrets of micro-larval care and rearing have kept progress at a glacial pace and will not come in time to save anything. The industry is clearly sustained by wildcaught livestock while cultured fishes progress far slower then reef destruction. Steve |
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#105
11/19/2005, 07:55 AM
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dah!
Quote:
As an informed hobbiest, I believe that the only real way to save the reefs from more distruction is make sure and demand that our lfs buys responsibly. Meaning that they only get net caught fish in. In this small way, we can support the collectors that are doing things the right way and don't/won't revert to cyanide to catch dinner or blasting the reefs for road construction materials. WE AS A COLLECTIVE GROUP need to make our voices heard! But unfortunately, there are many among us who only care about how much that pretty little fishey is going to cost. They only care that the price is cheap. You see it everyday on this bb and on others, "where can I get ... cheap?" That's the problem.
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Sally |
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#107
12/04/2005, 02:57 PM
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Great thread. Lots of issues raised. I myself am leaving my job after christmas to work on an NPO. The puprose is to develop ecologically friendly and ecoonomical viable technologies and practices that can be applied in marine ornamenta aquaculture. The lessoned learned there can also be applied to conventional ffod aquaculture and other businesses. The bottom line is the bottom line. If it is not cheaper and more efficient to use an environmentally friendly alternative it will not be used on a wide scale. If captive cultured or responsibly aquacultured speciemens were available and cheaper people would buy them. Some may buy exclusively because something is captive bred. Most will buy because it is cheaper.
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#108
12/04/2005, 03:05 PM
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And we can't kid ourselves about inland coral growing. All the electricity, products, and water we use ( and waste) have an ecological impact. Hands down the hobby currently has an overall negative impact on the environment. How many resources did it take to grow that tank raised coral? Sure it wasn't collected from the ocean but the mercury in the bulb you used will make into the tuna you eat eventually.
However I feel what the hobby is doing now overall is beneficial in that we are bringning more awareness to the reefs. More people have a vested interest in them now than ever before. By using this awareness and switching to evironmentally friendly practices the impact can be switched to a positive one. The hobbyist is perhaps the most powerful player in all this as they can demand change and do things themselves at home. With enough time and energy put into this we can find ways to do these environmentally friendly alternatives easier and cheaper. PLease check out www.asaquaculture.org |
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#109
12/04/2005, 04:23 PM
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reverse progress
Progress?
As the rate of progress is far , far slower then reef destruction...I surely don't get it. This trade sidestepped the whole cyanide fish question for 25 years and went straight into pretentions of being reef friendly cause they frag a few fingers....for self benefit and interest. None of the coral growing ...[ and crowing ] stems from an environmental ethic. It stems from a production ethic for better numbers and more controlled output. To stand by mute...nay, to consume heartily cyanide fish that sprung from mature stands of aged coral for decades and only become born again as token acros get chopped to multiply profit...? Puh..ease people! Who are we fooling by trying to substitute pennies for dollars here? The cyanide trade is still going strong and the only outcry and demand I heard as a wholesaler for 25 years was for cheaper fish...not sustainable ones. Parroting deed-free Eco speak and touting chop-shop tokenism as evidence of change is mere wordsmithing for P.R. purposes. Whos fooled by it other then newbies and MAC followers and outsiders? I'd take an ounce of action over a pound of puff and platitudes anyday. Steve |
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#110
12/23/2005, 01:12 PM
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i think anyone interested in keeping a saltwater tank should start out with a 20 gallon full of neon tetras or some other sensitive fish. then they can add plants and try to keep them alive. the plants are much like corals because they need light, not as much but without lots of light the plants look ugly. keeping freshwater tanks will get the person into the "cycle" of checking the water conditions, feeding, and prepare them for that big saltwater tank.
i think that all collecting should be greatly regulated. more money should be put into captive breeding than collecting. how much money does 10,000 lb of cyanide (spelling?) cost? put that money into captive breeding. duh lol. it isnt impossible to breed the "impossible breeders" just takes lots of trial and error. someday i think all fish will be captive bred. price will probly remain super high as compared to freshwater fish. which will also keep the amatures out of the salt. btw, i love freshwater fish as well. i have a 14 inch clown knife fish
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#112
12/27/2005, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Steve, is there a way for the hobbyist to find out wether the fish our LFS gets is cyanide caught or not?
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Gabriel So shoot me! |
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#114
12/29/2005, 11:50 AM
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Sallys right,
But then again, all wholesalers will say... "buy from me and I'll set you free!" Including me. We're all Spartacus! Steve |
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#116
12/31/2005, 12:29 AM
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My thoughts are that regulations for collection should be set, net collection and limits so that fish are healthier and rare species will not be impacted due to over collection, and if species can be tank raised numbers taken through collection should be limited greatly as the need for wild caught is not needed. Just my opinion.
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#117
01/01/2006, 03:55 AM
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Zedx6,
All cultured livestock [ a myth and impossibility in any readers lifetime ] will simply divert the fisherman into food fishing and probably greater impact on the reefs we say we wish to "save." Funny way to pretend to save anything. Cultured stuff is a placebo at best and a cheap deodorant in lieu of a shower. It is something...but a foundation of the industry it is not. Unlocking the secrets of micro-larval care and rearing have kept progress at a glacial pace and will not come in time to save anything. The industry is clearly sustained by wildcaught livestock while cultured fishes progress far slower then reef destruction. Steve |
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#118
01/02/2006, 12:11 AM
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I agree that the pace of development for aqua cultured fish is slow, but I do not think we should not continue to try and develope it, break throughs can occur in short periods of time with the way technology is advancing. The fact that there are reefs around the world makes it difficult to regulate especially in third world countries, I am sure they will continue to use cyanide and wholesalers will continue to buy those fish. I read that you were the one to call this out in the early 80's and have tried to train some of the collectors which is great but this is still going on 20+ years later, so what would you suggest we do as hobbyist?
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#119
01/02/2006, 03:13 AM
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Progress continues on the breeding front on its on momentum and incentive.
It inches forward at a glacial pace....too slow to save much reef at all. Thats why the 500 or so that have been net-trained need to be enhanced. The only thing that has held this back has been people. The funding was and is there....Its just that the people in charge don't know how to do it and never will. They are simply not fisherman oriented field people and thats where all the action is. They will write stories, grant proposals, survey data and the like, but they will not inspire divers to convert the way they are now. This is not difficult for us commercial people to solve but its impossible for outsiders who covet the grant money and spend it unwisely Steve. Steve |
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#120
01/02/2006, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Being informed is being forwarned.
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Sally |
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#121
01/10/2006, 02:48 AM
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ok i have to put in my two cents here. i hate the idea of paying more for a fish or a coral i busted my ar$e for what i did have,but making the hobby only for the rich isnt fair either. why if your your urges to buy something out wieghs your respect and consideration for other living things whats a little money.
btw i have always been a big fan of captive bred fish not all my stock has been captive but a great many were. ps i have only went over 1 page of this monster thread, but i could not keep my mouth shut Ashley |
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#122
01/10/2006, 10:37 AM
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Ashley,
Thanks for the 2 cents of comment. Especially this one; ....."why if your your urges to buy something out wieghs your respect and consideration for other living things whats a little money..." Where can we send the change? s |
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#123
01/10/2006, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
I work hard for my money too but it is worth it to me to spend a little more to know that some some poor fisher in PI is getting his fair share of the pie for catching me a fish with out the use of cyanide. No one is trying to make this a hobby just for the rich. What's trying to be done (in a nutshell version) helping the reefs in third world countrys WHILE making a sustainable living for those that use the reef resources for their livihood AND ethical for the rest of us nimrods to enjoy the bounties of those reefs. Steve, just give her a full refund.
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Sally |
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#124
01/10/2006, 06:12 PM
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lol ok it was late when i wrote that. yes i would and have paid extra to have a fish i knew was net caught. and will continue to always do it that way cause i hate having a fish i just bought die its heart breaking. what i meant was making fish and corals more expensive to make people think about what they are doing and make them apprecate what they are getting will not work its about respect, patience and consideration for others all the money in the world can not give you that .
the stupid people who have more money will still be doing the same thing. personally i think people like that come and go from the hobby watching fish and inverts die constantly would become to much. to much money to much of a headache and no reward or instant gratifaction which we all know is so important to our society. /rolls her eyes there are also times when some places i have dealt with are down right dishonest or the fishes way of getting caught can not be traced. i have found captive bred fish are a wonderful alternative and will always look for that option first despite of the lack of variety. lol i had a dottyback that lived in a tank for 5 days in 30 degree water cause of a icestorm knocking out the power that was captive bred. you cant beat that with a stick lol well maybe you could. as for those third world countries everyone has to do their part yes the fishermen need to make a living to support there families without destroying the reefs. the people they sell the fish to need to pay a good wage for net caught fish and the people who export those fish need to only take fish that are not caught with cyanide or animals that do not do well in captiity. the goverment needs to enforce the rules that are and will be set. we the aquarists need stop looking at things just as a consumer from a capitalistic country. (i could go on and on about that this is the simple short version) those are just the simple and idealistic parts of it. human nature is not always that simple. bah the person who said there should be a temporary ban was possibly right maybe we all need a time out. Ashley |
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#125
01/10/2006, 10:28 PM
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IF there is anyone to blame. .. blame the creators of the movie "Nemo" for causing everyone to want a clownfish (even though the point of the movie was to free nemo rather than collect them for our own collection). I find that raising the prices of the fish would just make reefing more for those who are in the class that can afford it, rather than keeping it out of irresponsible hands. truthfully, after the movie, clownfish in general seemed to raise in price. Before, I saw tomato clowns for around10 bucks, but after the movie, they were going for 19.99-29.99 each. Price cant be used as a factor for irrespoinsiblity. if anything, the fish store should be the one educating the customers, tellling them the difficulty level and care for saltwater, rather than just sellling anyone a clownfish, that would end up living in a goldfish bowl.
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