White lesions / bumps on zoanthids. Discussion on treatment

bkiba · #1 10/19/2005, 06:20 AM

Ok I've been watching this patch get worse for about 3 days now so I dipped these. I got scared when these things didn't fall off so I just left them in tank water and some HP overnight. Needless to say almost everything is dead but these white spots are still attached. I saved a small piece of this (about 10 polyps) that seemed unaffected.

These white lesions are appearing all over these zoos. They look too big for nudi eggs and don't have any defined shape really. When I pry them off it is almost like the are part of the polyp. They kind of collapse into goo when removed, so I'm not sure if they are attached or inside the zoo. Maybe I'm just freaking out.

This hasn't really spread from what I can see but my zoos have been behaving weird lately. I did notice this pack getting more and more white spots. Maybe this is some kind of bacterial or viral infection???

bkiba · #2 10/19/2005, 11:33 AM

I need someone's help. No one has seen anything like this before?

TheMcs · #3 10/19/2005, 01:18 PM

I went through that a couple weeks ago. I used the Lugol's dip, but the usual few minutes doesn't do anything to the white spots.

I made the mistake of dipping my zoas for 2-3 hours (long enough to kill the white spots). Well, that also killed most of my zoas. From about 40 different morphs, I have 5 left.

Before I dipped, I tried cutting off only the affected polyps, but that did nothing.

All I can recommend is to do multiple 15 minute dips, with several hours in between. That's just speculation, I didn't get a chance to try that.

From what little info I could find, the white spots are a bacterial or parasitic infection. I can come in on anything. I learned my lesson to QT everything!

Good luck, those white spots destroyed our zoa collection.

bkiba · #4 10/19/2005, 02:36 PM

Ok thanks MCS. So I'm not over reacting. Luckily I haven't seen too much of a spread to more than one or two other polyps. I'll do a thorough inspection tonight.

bkiba · #5 10/19/2005, 03:39 PM

man I'm screwed. This crap is on almost each one of my colonies of zoos. MCS did the ones that survived just have nothing on them to begin with? Any other recommendations??

Anyone? Please help!

bkiba · #6 10/19/2005, 04:08 PM

Ok I looked at one of the removed zoo pox under the microscope. Mine only gets up to 400X but I can see lots of little spots that look like bacterial colonies. My GF (microbiologist) agrees. I'm going to setup a small setup and just keep dipping these guys outside of my main tank. Although this is about 90% of the zoos I have..... good thing I have ACL surgery tomorrow - plenty of time at home. -sigh-

any further comments or suggestions are appreciated...

tekknoschtev · #7 10/19/2005, 04:42 PM

The only thing I can think about that partciular colony is that dipping overnight was a mistake. I've had some zoas with those spots, and what I do is frag them, leave the healthy ones in the system (in the fuge, which has decent lighting) and then the infected ones go into a QT/Frag tank. I've had some success after fragging with the smaller frags being able to recover in the QT/Frag tank.

bkiba · #8 10/19/2005, 05:57 PM

Well those were really bad. There were only about 2 or 3 polyps in there without the affliction. I was just trying to see what is going to work (obviously not that). Right now I've set up a QT rubbermaid tub, added a little iodine and tank water. About 90% of my zoos aer in there.... I'm gonna go through them a little more and pick off the white spots - but for now hopefully what is remaining will be ok, or I can catch it before it spreads all aroudn again. Thanks for the help.

CoralNutz · #9 10/19/2005, 08:31 PM

Hope someone figures out what this is and a solution to it. Looks pretty viscious...

One thing I ALWAYS do is make sure that I have at least two other people locally that I GIVE frags to when I get new zoas. That way if I ever lose a colony, or all my zoas, I will be able to get them back.

Good luck with this, hopefully it won't wipe out everything.

fvandijk · #10 10/19/2005, 08:49 PM

I had a similar problem that a few weeks ago right after I introduced a new frag. It was definitely contagious and affected many of the frags/colonies I had in my quarantine aquarium (I had actually moved several from my main aquarium to this holding aquarium in preparation for a move to my new nano). I tried several things (freshwater dips, Lugol's, isolation, increased flow, etc.). See the following pic in my gallery:

The one thing that did seem to work was Tetracycline at approx 10 mg/L (take a 250 mg tab dissolve into 500 mL of freshly madeup (salt) water, pour approx. 80-100 cc into 1 gal of freshly madeup (salt) water). I dipped these for 30 minutes, followed by a 3-5 minute dip in FW with Lugol's during which time I plucked off all of the obviously diseases polyps with a pair of tweezers.

Can't say with any great degree of certainty that this is what helped and that it was not anything else (this obviously was not a scientifically sound double blinded experiment), but this did seem to stave off what initially resulted in fairly quick and wide spread mortality. Since you say your GF is a microbiologist you may be able to further categorize the microorganisms as gram+ or gram - and more specifically treat than I did (I work in a hospital but this happened so quickly that I did not have the opportunity to take it to someone to evaluate, but I to I based the above on some reading I had done and thank God it worked).

I do believe that in our little microcosms we frequently have delicate microbial balances that can be upset by relatively minor things and that much of our "sudden mortality" is the result of unknown or poorly known bacterial pathogens.

Anyway, good luck. Let us know how your zoos do.

Frans

MUCHO REEF · #11 10/19/2005, 10:27 PM

Hello bkiba, sorry to hear that you too are experiencing the latest zooanthid plague. My first experience was about a year ago. Out of the blue, there it was growing on the side of a couple of stolens on a single colony. A day later I noticed it on the opposite side of my tank on a second colony, then a third. It's at times like this that I wish I were a Marine Biologist or the like, to seriously tackle these type of issues. I can't say if it's BI or a fungus of some sort . What I do know is that these nodules, postules, for the lack of a better word, range in colors. Typically Opaque white or light cream, to milky white to a light yellowish cheesy color. They are sticky and well secured to individual polyps. Trying to cut them away has only resulted in tissue damage and potential infections to the affected polyps/colony.

I tried dipping and it was not affective at eradicating them. I tried adjusting certain parameters with hopes of possibly killing it off. That didn't work either. I did notice however that they did indeed multiply/spread, more when my lights were on. When I ran my actinics only, the progression slowed, but it didn't kill it. I have absolutely no idea what it is. It was theorized in something I read somewhere last year, that there was a direct correlation with MH lighting when the problem arose. However I have read that reefers would ran PC or MH have also experienced the same problem.

Lets not confuse this with the white pin dot pimples on the underside of many zooanthids we have in our tanks. These white dots are merely a part of the pigment of the polyp. I have many colonies with this same dotted pigment in my tank and they have grown without any negative or adverse issues whatsoever for many many years. These white pimpled dots are embedded in the fleshy underside of said polyps and should not be confused with the issue you are experiencing.

I would never consider dipping any zoo colony for 2 or 3 hours. And I mean absolutely no disrespect TheMcs. It might kill the white stuff, but I can assure you it will have a negative if not fatal impact on the colony.

There are so many of us who shy away from treatments such as Tetracycline. It has a proven track record as a good remedy for many issues. If it worked for you fvandijk, you may be on to something. I say try it again and see what happens. Please come back and post the results, we would all love to know the results my friend.

I hate to be defeated, I hate not knowing, I hate losing zoos for any reason. I hate sitting and waiting for a cure to hit the market. I think more of us should do what fvandijk has done. Even though I might shy away from it with such a large number of zoos in my tank, I do applaud him and reefers like him who at least make the attempt.

Last year I watched as 4 of my prime colonies succumbed to these white patches. I tried everything I knew, from quarantining, changing elevation, placing the colonies under an overhang, you name it. So I had a hunch. If you remove the colony and touch these white patches, they are somewhat raised, lumpy, bumpy and sticky moist of course, and they won't peel off that easy. So the second time I had it, I removed the colonies and did a 5 minute dip with slightly elevated levels of iodine. 10 drops of Lugols to 1 gallon of RO water. I raised the temp of the water to 80 degrees, just 2 degrees higher than my tank. After the dip, (and hold on to your live rocks when you hear this), I placed the affected colonies on a piece of paper towel on the counter in the kitchen. Making sure the ambient room temp was a little warmer than usual, I left them there for 5 hours. Before you gasp, zoos are typically exposed to the sun in shallow areas during low tide, this fact is well documented. My theory, and it was only a theory, was to allow these white globs to just dehydrate and die off. To my surprise, after slowly warming them up to the same temp as my tank water, and placing them back in tank just before my tank was completely dark for the evening; I noticed a major improvement the following day. There were only a few spots left. The following day, there were tiny dots of it left. Within 5 days, it was completely gone. I managed to save 2 of the 3 affected colonies. Now here's the crazy thing that baffles me to this day. It showed up again a few weeks ago, this time I decided to do nothing, nothing but direct my return nozzle so it was hit with a constant current. Mind you, it was one of my favorite colonies, but I took the chance to see what would happen if I left it where it was and just showered it with excessive flow. Believe it or not, it slowly reversed the infestation. Now I'm waiting to see if shows up again, and I will remove the colony to see if allowing them to dehydrate is the thing to do.

I hope we continue the dialogue on this issue and I hope someone out there can find a way to stop the progression and onset of this problem.

Mucho Reef

Reef Junkie · #12 10/19/2005, 11:34 PM

I was waiting to hear what you had to say about this Mucho.
This is a problem that has been plagueing a lot of tanks lately and I had them a while back. I removed the colony to inspect it and like you said, the pustules or whatever they are appear to be in or imbedded in the tissue of the zoanthids.
I've read information in the past by an author (I'm not sure if I have this right) that claims soft corals can accumulate enough toxic chemicals in their tissue and basically kill themselves because they cannot expell it fast enough. I think the author said the offending chemical is similar to Hydrogen Peroxide in the tissue. The author was Julian Sprung and I'm trying to find that snipette he wrote. I don't remember if it was in Reef notes or in one of his Reef volumes.

Anyway, from what you have said and from mine and other experiences, I don't think this is something that is viral or passes from tank to tank like nudibranchs. It could be a very normal process and affliction caused by a lack of nutrients or vitamin suppliments? Kind of like scurvy before they knew lack of vitamin C was the culprit.

Back to the author... He explained how to reverse the buildup of toxin in the corals using suppliments, but I think it might have been a shameless attempt to sell some of his products, who knows? He suggested using an Iodine suppliment added directly to the tank to help the corals expire these toxins.

News update, you're not going to believe this! I stopped writing and glanced up at my tank to see a large colony of my zoas closed... It is completely (skirt to base) covered with these nodules! Yet it was completely open and thriving minutes ago...

This should be made a sticky and we should delve deeper into this. Please for the love of "my" zoanthids!

Ideas?

bkiba · #13 10/20/2005, 07:53 AM

Hmm

I've got plenty of zoos afflicted so I can try the drying method and the tetracycline method (any idea on where to buy the tablets?). I will also run the lights on low. These things look a lot like bacteria to me. If it is a toxic chemical buildup then that may have ground too since I never do water changes

anyhow I will report back when I get some more progress.

thanks to everyone for the suggestions I really appreciate it!

dcoufal · #14 10/20/2005, 08:31 AM

You should be able to pickup Tetracycline from most LFS's -- even WalMart typically carries it in the fish area....

Note: It's labeled "Not for human consumption" and costs many x's the price of the "human" version.

Dwain

TheMcs · #15 10/20/2005, 12:23 PM

Mucho, no offense taken, just tried that because a friend had accidentally left zoas in a dip overnight with no ill effect.

bkiba, some of my colonies that had the whites spots and were treated to the 3 hour dip are surviving and starting to open. I like some of the other suggestions a lot better than my remedy (obviously). In my case, it took 2-3 hours for the FW Lugol's dip to kill the white spot. Effective to treat the ailment, but not healthy for the zoas.

I had tried fragging the night before, removing approx 250 polyps. I thought I was thorough, but the next day it was back in full force.

I first noticed the spots on a small frag of blues that had fallen upside down into a hole. It was there a couple days before I found it. When I pulled it out it had the white spots. The next day they were spread through the tank.

We definitely need to get this thing figured out!

fvandijk · #16 10/20/2005, 12:26 PM

You could get the tetracycline at a drug store if you can get a perscription from someone (this will probably be the cheapest).

Otherwise, most LFS or petstores carry one form or another. I got Maracyn-TC (made by Mardel) at Petsmart and this is in a powder form which will dissolve much faster, i.e. seconds to minutes (I used some in pill form before and found it took several hours to dissolve- maybe if you use a mortar and pestle to grind up the pills this will decrease the time also).

Good luck.

bkiba · #17 10/21/2005, 11:39 AM

Thanks again guys. Ive removed all but one (large colony) of affected zoos to a quaratine system. The remaining colony has a small infestation. I just had surgery yesterday so I'm not really up to fish tank maintenance just yet. But I've switched over to atinics only in the main system and haven't seen any spread yet. The quarantine system is full of FSW with some extra iodine added. I'm probably going to try the drying method first after a lugols dip since I can't drive anywhere yet. But maybe I can get some tetracycline off the internet somewhere (canada??

). So thanks again for all the suggestions, I'm a little less worried now and hopefully will get this thing licked.

MarvinsReef · #18 10/23/2005, 12:13 AM

great replies everyone... this is something that needs to be figured out as a lot of beautiful zoas are being destroyed because of this... I have some frags on QT right now that are displaying the symptom.. I will have to try the drying method tomorrow..

Thanks again.
Marvin

MUCHO REEF · #19 10/23/2005, 06:25 AM

I would shot for a couple of hours instead of 5 just to be safe, It's not a proven fact just because it worked for me. I am waiting for it to happen again to see if I can do the same thing. Shot for 3 hours and see what happens. I once left a frag sitting on the counter by mistake for an entire day, and it opened in a couple of hours after going back into my tank. Now that's hardy.

Mucho

tekknoschtev · #20 10/23/2005, 09:03 AM

Mucho, I accidentally left a small frag of polyps that were floating in the tank (me thinks the hermits snipped it off and the flow got to it) sitting on the black rim of the tank for nearly 3 hours, and they appeared pretty much baked (MH lights and all). I dont like throwing zoanthids away - especially after seeing how much money I've spent on them, and then realizing the fact that they are living creatures - so I mounted it to a frag plug. They're doing great today! Holds true to that tidal region exposed to the sun all day to a certain degree.

As for the drying method, I cant say as to the amount of time the polyps were out of the water, however, when attempting to save a colony of Ked's Reds zoanthids, I fragged the small colony into three pieces, two of which had the white splotches, one which didnt. I placed the one that didnt in the 150gal tank, and then put one of the ones with the splotches in the fuge of the 150 (VHO lighting). The other one went into the frag tank. Today, I have three healthy, growing zoanthids, two mounted to frag plugs, one mounted to an agrocrete rock. No more white stuff. So perhaps a certain component of this method is stress? Perhaps stress causes them to excrete the toxic chemical or whatever is growing on them? Stress in the drying method from being out of their natural environment (and in your case, with elevated iodine levels, and variances in temperature to a certain degree) and stress in my case, because while fragging they were dried off on a towel prior to mounting?

Very thought provoking discussion.

ALTI · #21 10/23/2005, 09:23 AM

i had the same problem for a long time with a colony of brown button polyps. dips did nothing for me. it didnt spread and it seemed to come and go. not too many polyps actually died. they would close for a couple of weeks and most would reopen after a while. since i moved it to my prop system where it is getting a more direct constant current and stronger lighting it has completely vanished and the colony is growing out of control.

now im starting to get it on another colony of paly's. this colony is in a lower current area of the prop tank. i fragged off 6 small frags of the effected polyps and am going to try all different type of placement to see what works best.

Nagel · #22 10/23/2005, 11:45 AM

wow, I step away for a few days and this happens..

A most excellent discussion guys, I am sorry I can't offer more on this subject as I really havent had to deal with it..

Bu, I stickied the thread, and changed the title to reflect the discussion at hand..

Reef Junkie · #23 10/23/2005, 03:10 PM

Excellent, thanks Eric!
So far the colony that has this same affliction hasn't shown any sign of recession or distress. I am going to wait and see. If it starts to get worse I may try Mucho's method to reverse the process.
Keep the post coming.

Reef Junkie · #24 10/29/2005, 12:19 AM

Question, can the people who posted about having this problem list their systems specs?
More specifically, what they do to help keep their water clean/clear?
I have a hunch on why this might be happening, because I did something recently and I think it might be the culprit or part of the problem.
Thanks,
Bill

MarvinsReef · #25 10/31/2005, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reef Junkie
Question, can the people who posted about having this problem list their systems specs?
More specifically, what they do to help keep their water clean/clear?
I have a hunch on why this might be happening, because I did something recently and I think it might be the culprit or part of the problem.
Thanks,
Bill

can you please this thing that you recently did so others can try it also and see if it works...

thanks
Marvin