The Ultimate DIY Rocks! - Page 29

mr.wilson · #**701** 06/19/2007, 11:25 AM

Dolomite (calcium magnesium carbonate) is 100% safe, as it is comprised of the three main elements that you need to replenish in your tank.

When I started in the hobby, dolomite was the substrate of choice. You will lose some strength and texture due to the fine granules of the brand you have. You can get coarse dolomite at a farm supply store, sold as chicken/turkey grit.

bored4long · #**702** 06/19/2007, 11:37 AM

Thanks, I'll start looking for a feed store. Everything I've found on RC refers to Dolomite being the substrate of choice 'back in the day' but nothing mentions why ppl stopped using it.

Its a very nice, bright with sand with very few 'off color' granules. Indeed the sand is very, very fine.

goldmaniac · #**703** 06/19/2007, 11:53 AM

Wait - so the smaller the sand particles, the less it'll increase strength? to a point?

I'm using used refugium sand in my mix. Kent's BioSubstrate. sugar sized particles. is this helping the strength?

G.

mr.wilson · #**704** 06/19/2007, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bored4long
Thanks, I'll start looking for a feed store. Everything I've found on RC refers to Dolomite being the substrate of choice 'back in the day' but nothing mentions why ppl stopped using it.

Its a very nice, bright with sand with very few 'off color' granules. Indeed the sand is very, very fine.

Aragonite (calcium carbonate) is soluble at a higher PH than dolomite, as it will dissolve at a PH of 8.4, while dolomite requires 7.8 (or lower) before it will dissolve and buffer the PH, alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, trace elements etc.).

In order to make the magnesium or calcium bioavailable, twice as many carbonate ions need to be put into solution. Aragonite is coral skeletons, and therefore will fit better into the composition of reef chemistry.

There are no drawbacks of using dolomite as a substrate, it's just not the best chemical media for a reef tank.

michaelalan · #**705** 06/19/2007, 12:22 PM

Hell yeah, Dolomite! You dig?

mr.wilson · #**706** 06/19/2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by goldmaniac
Wait - so the smaller the sand particles, the less it'll increase strength? to a point?

I'm using used refugium sand in my mix. Kent's BioSubstrate. sugar sized particles. is this helping the strength?

G.

In concrete construction, the larger the aggregate, the stronger the cement. Fine sand is only used in grout and mortar where the cement will not be greater than 1/2" thick; however, maximum strength isn't the key goal with DIY rock, so you can cheat a little.

Using fine sand, or too little sand will allow for more shrinkage and subsequent cracking. Slowing the cure process by keeping the rock damp (wet towels or misting) will minimize shrinkage cracks.

If you are making large rocks, larger aggregate is more important. I find crushed oyster shell to be a good size for our purpose, and it's the cheapest alternative (farm supply store). Oyster shell has a grey colour that matches live rock and portland. If you are using white portland, then aragonite or dolomite will match closer.

Oyster shell takes phosphate, silicate and DOC (dissolved organic carbon) out of solution, due to its unique matrix. This isn't a huge benefit to water quality, unless you take the rock out and clean it with acid to recharge it. You would lose beneficial bacteria in the process, and it's very impractical, so you should stick to carbon, polymeric adsorbents and ion exchange media and resins for that duty.

mr.wilson · #**707** 06/19/2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by michaelalan
Hell yeah, Dolomite! You dig?

Yeah, thanks to Rudy Ray Moore, the word Dolomite will never sound the same.

bored4long · #**708** 06/19/2007, 12:46 PM

Mr. Wilson, Thank you for your quick feedback. Very good information.

Sunkool, I'm calling around the local feed stores looking for the hardshell you use. Is there any other brand or name I should be asking for, because noone carries that around me. What is it? Is it gravel sized Dolomite or Oyster?

Thanks.

goldmaniac · #**709** 06/19/2007, 02:09 PM

so is it a good idea to use pre-used refugium sand with my white portland cement?

what's the concensus?

I made a couple pieces, with the ratio 1:1:2 of cement:sand:salt

thanks

Insane Reefer · #**710** 06/19/2007, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bored4long
Is there any other brand or name I should be asking for, because noone carries that around me. What is it? Is it gravel sized Dolomite or Oyster?

Thanks.

Sunkools' stuff is something I've never seen, and I have kept chickens on and off for the last 20 years. I also live in the mid-west and no-one locally carries it. I'm jealous...
I think his stuff is probably dolomite, but it all is basically calcium carbonate and any chicken feed additive that is lime/calcium/dolo based will work - avoid granite though. I use oyster shell and limestone for feed mixing, with a bit of CC for giggles.

Goldman - using old stuff from your old systems is perfectly fine. I have a sign posted at the LFS asking for old media, sand and CC, and get some donated once in a while.

Mr Wilson, Michaelalan - That brings back memories.Dolemite. Man. Been a long time since I saw the Dolemite movies. It is nice to see references like that; it dates the older members

sunkool · #**711** 06/19/2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bored4long
Mr. Wilson, Thank you for your quick feedback. Very good information.

Sunkool, I'm calling around the local feed stores looking for the hardshell you use. Is there any other brand or name I should be asking for, because noone carries that around me. What is it? Is it gravel sized Dolomite or Oyster?

Thanks.

Its made by Franklin Industrial Minerals.
The MSDS says there is 1.5% silica but I don't think it has any. It will dissolve completely in vinegar. It looks Just like crushed coral that you would get in a lfs.

impur · #**712** 06/19/2007, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by goldmaniac
so is it a good idea to use pre-used refugium sand with my white portland cement?

what's the concensus?

I made a couple pieces, with the ratio 1:1:2 of cement:sand:salt

thanks

Just rinse it and it should work. I'll be using industrial quartz, usually used in sand blasting for mine. I cannot find anything limestone based in this entire city of over 200,000 people. I've been searching for 3 months :/

michaelalan · #**713** 06/19/2007, 03:43 PM

I don't know why people are using Limestone and other calcium based products with the portland. From what I have learned, that just adds to the pH problem.

sunkool · #**714** 06/19/2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by impur
Just rinse it and it should work. I'll be using industrial quartz, usually used in sand blasting for mine. I cannot find anything limestone based in this entire city of over 200,000 people. I've been searching for 3 months :/

did you check with

J. Co. Feed & Pet Supply
2200 Highway 99 N
Eugene, OR 97402
(541) 689-1667

or

Diess Feed and Seed Inc
5590 W 11th Ave
Eugene, OR 97402
(541) 343-5007

or

McKenzie Feed and Saddlery
4343 Main St
Springfield, OR 97478
(541) 726-2951

or

H & E Feeds
29315 Awbrey Ln
Eugene, OR 97402
(541) 688-3214

many more within 20 miles of Eugene, OR. Right Here

sunkool · #**715** 06/19/2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by michaelalan
I don't know why people are using Limestone and other calcium based products with the portland. From what I have learned, that just adds to the pH problem.

???

impur · #**716** 06/19/2007, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sunkool
did you check with

J. Co. Feed & Pet Supply
2200 Highway 99 N
Eugene, OR 97402
(541) 689-1667

or

Diess Feed and Seed Inc
5590 W 11th Ave
Eugene, OR 97402
(541) 343-5007

or

McKenzie Feed and Saddlery
4343 Main St
Springfield, OR 97478
(541) 726-2951

or

H & E Feeds
29315 Awbrey Ln
Eugene, OR 97402
(541) 688-3214

many more within 20 miles of Eugene, OR. Right Here

Yah tried all those. Trust me, i called them all. Either the person answering the phone was too dumb to know what i was asking for, they don't actually know what they carry, or somehow what I thought i was saying in English came out in Spanish.

Even the Pavestone distributor and retailer here in town doesn't actually carry Pavestone. Go figure.

At any rate i got 100lbs industrial quartz that looks really nice. Its slightly larger grain size than sand and i think will work really well in my rocks.

impur · #**717** 06/19/2007, 04:33 PM

dbl post

michaelalan · #**718** 06/19/2007, 04:44 PM

Impur, I think you're better off with the quartz. Larger size means better strength for thicker rock and probably lower pH.

impur · #**719** 06/19/2007, 05:05 PM

Thanks. I'm not worried about the quartz. I'm excited to finally have all the supplies so i can finish my rockwork!

goldmaniac · #**720** 06/20/2007, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by michaelalan
I don't know why people are using Limestone and other calcium based products with the portland. From what I have learned, that just adds to the pH problem.

what pH problem? the pH spike that's caused by the curing cement?

asplain yourself please

michaelalan · #**721** 06/20/2007, 11:05 AM

I have some tests in the works.

Using Fast Setting Quikrete to shorten cure time.
Using polymer crystals instead of salt.
Using the Denisified Micro Silica to reduce pH

Will have results in 28 days.

I will start some tests for Commercial Grade Fast Set Mortar from Quikrete starting this weekend.
I called Quickrete and they suggested the Fast Set product.

mr.wilson · #**722** 06/20/2007, 11:24 AM

We discussed Quikrete in this thread.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=993625

michaelalan · #**723** 06/20/2007, 12:15 PM

Thoughly discussed in Mr Wilson's thread, glad to see.

Resolves all of my issues.

I will report on the Polymer Crystals only then.

Insane Reefer · #**724** 06/20/2007, 01:14 PM

I take it the ReefBalls guy never replied back, Michealalan?

Those hypersorb crystals are terribly expensive (esp. when compared to salt), and if you are going on what the guy at from Reef Balls said, Michealalan, I have to wonder like I said in the other post. He said salt was bad, but the hypersorb crystals are ok? They both are going to mess with the pore water.

And you know that the reason most of us don't use the hydraulic cements because they lack the pore and capillary structure that help make these rocks work as a biological filter? The fast set cements are ok if you are working on cementing live rock together, or for a backwall, but really are frowned on for creating the bulk of your rock...

I'd be interested in hearing your results for the Silica though. Several have asked about it or Fly Ash over the thread, but most of us weren't sure about it's safety, so have avoided it.

Good Luck

michaelalan · #**725** 06/20/2007, 01:41 PM

Insane, it's really not that much more expensive considering a tablespoon of dry crystal will produce 3 cups of solar salt equivalent.

Salt is reactive were this stuff seems to be benign. When I used salt in my previous mixes the hardening time was extended by 3 or 4 times the normal rate. The polymer has no such effect. If the hardening time is extended with salt, is then also the curing time?

And finally, no, I have not heard from the Reefball guy.