Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community Archives > Special Interest Group (SIG) Forums > Large Reef Tanks

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10/10/2004, 10:13 PM
Harleyguy Harleyguy is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 472
Tank plumbing design

Before I send my hole layout to my tank builder I wanted to run my plans past everyone here and get some feedback (both positive and negative).
I guess I should first explain my tank. It will be a room divider (viewable from 3 sides, both long sides and one end). The size is 96x36x32. What I am trying to do is keep all, or as much of the plumbing hidden as possible.
I will have two 2 inch drains in the overflow the return will be fed into a 4-way Oceansmotions (this will have two 1 1/2" outlets on the overflow face and two 1 1/2" will be plumbed so that they run under the LR (from there they will be Y'ed off, to give more exit locations). I will also have a 2" bulkhead feeding the closed loop. This will return into another 4-way oceansmotions and plumbed the same way as the other. I would like to be able to turn the closed loop off at night, to reduce flow in the tank to simulate night conditions.
I am also having 2 extra 2" bulkheads put in (just incase I need them). I am not worrying about any extra holes in the overflow face because it will be made from acrylic and if I need to add some holes later I can.

I figure I will run both the return and the closed loop with a pair of sequence 5000 pumps.

So here is my idea.....let me have it ....

Here is a rough drawing of my idea, along with some hole placements.


last one
__________________
Politically Incorrect
& Morally Impaired
  #2  
Old 10/10/2004, 10:42 PM
Gudwyn Gudwyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 499
Guess, I'm dense. Where are the two 2" drains? C/D/E/F are all indicated as 1.5" bulkheads. Err, wait. There are two different sets holes marked with those letters.

On the returns, do not forget to bring the plumbing up above the water surface, tee off the upper returns, then bring it down to feed the lower returns. I see you have both overflow and tank drilled for these feed lines, but you could just bring it over the edge and tee it down inside the overflow. Then you can't accidentally drain the entire tank into your sump.

How are you going to plumb the pipes thru the bottom of the overflow? Give it some serious thought. I think you can do it by using slip bulkheads and placing the pipe in place before adding the bulkheads. But unless you feel like gluing it, it won't be watertight. This is a problem since the entire tank can drain down to the lowest point where your durso isn't watertight. And if you don't glue the durso, that means all the way down to the bottom.

I think you can do it, just think hard about which set of pipes you want to glue. I would glue the thru pipes, but it's tricky since a little misalignment could permanently keep the bulkhead from sealing.

[EDIT: err wait, are i/j/k/l your upper returns? If so, where is your siphon break?]
  #3  
Old 10/10/2004, 11:00 PM
Harleyguy Harleyguy is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 472
In the picture labeled "looking down inside the overflow" all 4 of those holes are 2" bulkheads for drains. Although I will probably only use 2 of then, the other 2 are just in case. My tank is glass so I want to make sure that if I ever need it will be there.

Ok onto your second concern. If I can follow what you are talking about. The 4 red pipes are returns from the 4-way Oceansmotions the green ones are also returns. The 2" in the middle is a closed loop feed.
I really don’t want to run the 4 bottom 1 1/2" bulkheads threw both the glass and the overflow, but I think it's going to be a nightmare to plumb any other way.

I know I didn't mention this before, because I was really just showing the tank, but I will have a check valve on anything that might have the possibility of a power failure siphon.
__________________
Politically Incorrect
& Morally Impaired
  #4  
Old 10/11/2004, 09:16 AM
o2manyfish o2manyfish is offline
Moved On
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles - Where the Sun Grows Frags All Year Long :)
Posts: 3,652
"but I will have a check valve on anything that might have the possibility of a power failure siphon."

Here is the error of your planning - I would recommend rethinking your plumbing design until you can remove all Check Valves. Having more than one increases your flood potential exponentially.

If you plan to have this tank set up for any length of time, the valves are 100% guaranteed to fail.

If you are going to rely on the check valves, you are doomed for a flood. Years and Years of experience makes this statement.

Whether, spring loaded, flapped, or V trapped. Some sand silt, some coraline, some sponges, a snail, and your floors and tank are done for.

The 8" width of your overflow is going to make it very difficult to mount all that plumbing in there. By the time you have the bulkheads in the overflow wall, then to add the plumbing. You are not going to have much space to work with all the pipes.

And with all that plumbing in the overflow box, the efficiency and the noise of the overflow may become as issue.

Dave B
  #5  
Old 10/11/2004, 01:01 PM
Harleyguy Harleyguy is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 472
Quote:
Originally posted by o2manyfish
"but I will have a check valve on anything that might have the possibility of a power failure siphon."

Here is the error of your planning - I would recommend rethinking your plumbing design until you can remove all Check Valves. Having more than one increases your flood potential exponentially.

If you plan to have this tank set up for any length of time, the valves are 100% guaranteed to fail.

If you are going to rely on the check valves, you are doomed for a flood. Years and Years of experience makes this statement.

Whether, spring loaded, flapped, or V trapped. Some sand silt, some coraline, some sponges, a snail, and your floors and tank are done for.

The 8" width of your overflow is going to make it very difficult to mount all that plumbing in there. By the time you have the bulkheads in the overflow wall, then to add the plumbing. You are not going to have much space to work with all the pipes.

And with all that plumbing in the overflow box, the efficiency and the noise of the overflow may become as issue.

Dave B
Dave,
This is exactly why I posted this. I have not had any experience with a tank of this magnitude, and I simply put, don't know how to do it any other way (in order to prevent a siphon). As for the 8" deep overflow....I'm kind of limited to this by my tank placement. I could take the 4 returns that are at the bottom of the overflow and plumb them over the tank and threw the euro bracing, but I really don't want to see the plumbing (coming down into the tank).
What are your suggestions?
I like the idea of the 4-ways, because they will get water going on lots of directions, creating a turbulent environment.
__________________
Politically Incorrect
& Morally Impaired
  #6  
Old 10/11/2004, 01:40 PM
o2manyfish o2manyfish is offline
Moved On
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles - Where the Sun Grows Frags All Year Long :)
Posts: 3,652
If it were me.....


I would have 4 holes through the bottom of the tank, (possibly 4 corners) located where you think they will be best hidden, and hook that up to a closed loop which also pulls from the bottom of the tank.

I would use have the return from the sump go back to the tank via a Sea Swirl. The flow through the sump can be minimal as long as the movement in the tank (closed loops/ Powerheads) is strong. By returning via a SeaSwirl you take care of your siphon issue and create an additional random flow pattern.

If you want to do a second closed loop....

Dave B
  #7  
Old 10/11/2004, 01:41 PM
o2manyfish o2manyfish is offline
Moved On
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles - Where the Sun Grows Frags All Year Long :)
Posts: 3,652
PS -

If I sounded lick a condescending a$$ in my previous post, It was not my intention. I just wanted to make sure my point came across -

Dave B
  #8  
Old 10/11/2004, 03:48 PM
Gudwyn Gudwyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 499
I agree with o2. By tweaking this you can save yourself some complexity.

1. Reduce the flow thru the sump. A single 2" drain and 1.5" return should be able to flow plenty. An extra 2" backup drain is a good idea.

I only use a 900gph iwaki 55rlt on my 225. What's nice is that my return flow is well inside the 10-20 gpm (600-1200gph) recommended for my 1/3hp aqualogic chiller. So the entire sump return goes down into the crawlspace, thru the chiller, and back thru a single 1" sea-swirl. No siphon issues (well actually I drilled an extra 1/4" hole in the swirl to reduce the siphon - but even with that plugged my sump can still hold it all).

On a bigger tank you could kick it up to a 1/2hp chiller and an iwaki 70rlt still thru a single swirl. The 70rlt matches the 1500gph max on the 1/2hp aqualogic and is well inside the range of the 3/4hp.

You can flow more thru your sump, but why? That can lead to microbubbles and overflow noise. But plenty of people do flow a lot thru their sump, so it's a fine alternative if you want.

2. Don't be afraid to drill the bottom glass.

I have three 1.5" bulkheads in the bottom of my tank for the closed loop. In my opinion this is safer than doing the directly thru the overflow thing since getting those two bulkheads sealed properly to the overflow/tank and getting the pipe sealed between is complex. And really the only difference between the failure modes is a couple inches left in the bottom of the tank.

For my tank, the parts of the closed loop that return at the top are drilled in the overflow and the intakes are drilled in the bottom at the opposite end of the tank. That also prevents all the suction from being in a single point in the tank.


Good luck. I'm not really an expert and my tank is half the size of what you are planning. So keep asking around.

[Edit: oh and renumber your bulkheads so every identifier is globally unique. It confused me and if it confuses the tank builder it's gonna be a sad day. ]
  #9  
Old 10/11/2004, 04:41 PM
Harleyguy Harleyguy is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 472
Also I guess I should have added a few things. First off I am going to have a huge skimmer (really huge) It will be pushed by a Sequence 5000, so I need lots of flow into my overflow (this is the primary reason for the two 2" overflows (the other two are just extra for future expansion). I considered putting the four 1 1/2" returns threw the bottom of the glass, but I'm really concerned with the possibility of a leak there. I leak at that point would cause the whole tanks water volume to end up on my living room floor.

I had considered doing several sea swirls, but like I said before I want to keep the exposed plumbing to a minimum.

With all this being said, I think my only option is to use one-way valves (the clear ones) and check them regularly.

I still may plumb the 4 returns threw the bottom of the tank, (I just have to convince myself that they will be OK) and if I do I will silicone the bulkheads in place (as insurance).

I my also use 2 return pumps (for my return) just for redundancy. That way if one dies I will not loose all of my return flow.

I will also edit my drawings (giving each hole its own number) once I have a definitive plan.
__________________
Politically Incorrect
& Morally Impaired

Last edited by Harleyguy; 10/11/2004 at 04:54 PM.
  #10  
Old 10/11/2004, 04:44 PM
Harleyguy Harleyguy is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 472
Quote:
Originally posted by o2manyfish
PS -

If I sounded lick a condescending a$$ in my previous post, It was not my intention. I just wanted to make sure my point came across -

Dave B
I did not think that at all, as a matter of fact I really appreciate your input. I value any input, it all makes me think.
__________________
Politically Incorrect
& Morally Impaired
  #11  
Old 10/11/2004, 05:15 PM
o2manyfish o2manyfish is offline
Moved On
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles - Where the Sun Grows Frags All Year Long :)
Posts: 3,652
Even with a huge a$$ skimmer, the contact time will be with the water in the sump... So you don't need heavy flow through the sump. If you turn over the tank water 1x an hour through your sump, you will be skimming your tank every hour.

Even with the clear valves, that won't solve the problem - Rethink your setup. You can't see slime, silt and stuff. Not only that once the valve is in place for a while, the seal takes a shape, (different than the shape needed to close tight).

If it makes you feel any better, my 225 FO tank has been up for almost 10 years, I bought the tank used, it has about a dozen bulkheads in the bottom. I have never used silicone on my bulkheads. None of them have been replaced and none have ever leaked.

My previous reef tank was running for 17 years, bulkheads in place with no leaks.

If you do things right the first time, you won't have to worry about them in the long run. Quality Bulkheads, with a nice gasket will usually last until you physically break them -- LOL

Dave B
  #12  
Old 10/11/2004, 06:11 PM
hk hk is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Yucaipa, CA
Posts: 33
Quote:
I would like to be able to turn the closed loop off at night, to reduce flow in the tank to simulate night conditions.

Wouldn’t there be a concern with the water going anaerobic and Hydrogen sulfide if you let it sit in the plumbing all night with out moving?
  #13  
Old 10/11/2004, 06:25 PM
o2manyfish o2manyfish is offline
Moved On
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles - Where the Sun Grows Frags All Year Long :)
Posts: 3,652
Surface chop changes at night, but tidal motion is constant 24/7.

The actual currents over the reef don't vary much from daytime to night time.

Night Currents is a 'nifty' feature that doesn't really occur in nature.

Dave B
  #14  
Old 10/11/2004, 06:48 PM
Gudwyn Gudwyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 499
Quote:
I still may plumb the 4 returns threw the bottom of the tank, (I just have to convince myself that they will be OK) and if I do I will silicone the bulkheads in place (as insurance).
Well so far, I haven't had any issues. I feel comfortable running closed loops thru the bottom of the tank. It's just about getting a watertight seal on the bulkhead and doing a decent job with the plumbing. Failure is likely to be a slow dripping leak.

But please think hard about check valves for deeply placed sump returns. Just one snail in the wrong place and you'll fail in a gushing way.
  #15  
Old 10/11/2004, 07:21 PM
Harleyguy Harleyguy is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 472
Quote:
Originally posted by Gudwyn
But please think hard about check valves for deeply placed sump returns. Just one snail in the wrong place and you'll fail in a gushing way.
I understand why I need to worry about siphon, but I'm at a loss as to a solution (other than check valves). If someone can give me a viable solution, using the specifications I have stated (no plumbing hanging visible in tank) I will listen, and probably use those suggestions.
Thanks
Harleyguy
__________________
Politically Incorrect
& Morally Impaired
  #16  
Old 10/11/2004, 09:04 PM
Gudwyn Gudwyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 499
Instead of bringing the plumbing thru the wall at the bottom of the tank, bring it up over the edge and down into the overflow. Inside the overflow, drill a 1/4" hole just above the water level.

This is a little risky since there isn't a large unpluggable hole to break siphon. So I would also include a check valve.

From inside the tank, the bulkheads are in the same place. It's just the water goes up and over the tank wall, so the siphon break can stop the flow. If this is undesireable, you can simply loop the pipe up and back down outside the tank. At the top, tee off a 1/2" threaded and stick a john-guest quick connect with some 1/4" tubing spraying down into the overflow.

I've also seen people do a spraybar just above the water surface. You can't see the pipe due to the reflection. But I don't like that since it can add a lot of bubbles.

Another option is to reverse your check valves. Instead of preventing water from going backwards, they prevent the return from spraying down into the tank from above. If you lose power, the check valve opens and sucks in air. You might need to use an island vent since not all check valves will open under low pressure.

[Edit: if I was trying to achieve the same goal, I would back off slightly on the no visible. Tee off a 1/2" PVC line at the top of the return loop. Then use this as a small static return. If you have a 45deg elbow aiming down, the pipe below this elbow can be trimmed at a 45deg so it barely breaks the surface to get rid of bubbles. Yes, you will have a 1/2" by 1" oval visible at the surface, but it won't intrude into the viewing area ]

Last edited by Gudwyn; 10/11/2004 at 09:39 PM.
  #17  
Old 10/11/2004, 10:27 PM
Harleyguy Harleyguy is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 472
Gudwyn,
I think I get the Idea, Let me draw something and see if it's what you are talking about.
__________________
Politically Incorrect
& Morally Impaired
  #18  
Old 10/11/2004, 10:47 PM
willis willis is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Columbia Falls, Mt.
Posts: 763
Even with some visible pvc in the tank, if things go according to plan, they will be encrusted with coralline in no time. I think hk also has a good point!!! Would it be possible to throttle the pump down at nite just to keep water moving thru the system?
__________________
Rome wasn't built in a day--neither is a reef.
  #19  
Old 10/11/2004, 11:00 PM
Gudwyn Gudwyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 499
I turn off my closed loop at night. It's only like a gallon or two in the closed loop plumbing and both ends are still open to the system. I don't think this qualifies as anaerobic. If it was really long pipe, then maybe.

This is what I meant in my last message.

  #20  
Old 10/11/2004, 11:58 PM
Harleyguy Harleyguy is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 472
I guess this is what your talking about...


I can live with this little piece of plumbing showing. What is the smallest diamiter that will be affective? I don't want to take away from the 4-ways performance, will a 1/2" line with a butterfly valve almost closed (so that only 10-20 Gph comes out) work? I guess I could even plumb this into the top of the overflow as close to the teeth as possable...
__________________
Politically Incorrect
& Morally Impaired
  #21  
Old 10/12/2004, 12:12 AM
Harleyguy Harleyguy is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 472
Quote:
Originally posted by willis
Would it be possible to throttle the pump down at nite just to keep water moving thru the system?
All my support equipment will be in my fish room that is under my tank, in what used to be my crawlspace. I figure that my closed loops total length will be like 24' long (6' to the floor, 6' more to pump and then 12' back). This might be a bit long so what I may do is use 2 pumps instead of one the 2 pumps should have a combined flow of ~5000 Gph. I could put one of the pumps on a timer so that at night it goes off (reducing the closed loop flow by half)......
Sorry if this goes several directions at once but I type slow and I think fast. All this may be for not, if I do this my total flow in the tank will go from ~10,000 Gph to 7500 Gph. Do you think anything in my tank would even notice?
I guess I could keep the big pump, and plumb in a really small pump (like 500 Gph), but how would I which between the two pumps (automatically)? I wouldn't want the small pump to run during the day (what's the use), but it needs to come on when the big pump goes off.

Hope everyone followed all this.
__________________
Politically Incorrect
& Morally Impaired
  #22  
Old 10/12/2004, 01:05 PM
hk hk is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Yucaipa, CA
Posts: 33
I understand about going in multiple directions at the same time!

Why have the siphon break above the water level where you’ll get bubbles in your tank, why not have it just below the surface, and let it siphon off a half-inch or so before it starts sucking air. One half inch of water depth in your tank would only be about 7.5 gallons.
__________________
Does the 5-second rule apply in a public bathroom?
  #23  
Old 10/12/2004, 01:39 PM
Gudwyn Gudwyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 499
Harley,

I think you are close, but that exact layout can still siphon. You need to make sure that each path from the tank to the sump goes above the tanks water level at some point. If you create the ability for this high point to fill with air, the siphon will stop.



Here is another diagram. The square is a pump and the circle the ocean-motions. Notice that the only change from your original design is looping the plumbing up and back down outside the tank. Plus the addition of the 1/2" pipe to act as a siphon break.

You can certainly throttle back the 1/2" pipe if that worries you, but a 1/2" pipe carries about 5% of the water compared to two 1.5" pipes.
  #24  
Old 10/12/2004, 09:52 PM
Harleyguy Harleyguy is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 472
Quote:
Originally posted by Gudwyn
Harley,

I think you are close, but that exact layout can still siphon. You need to make sure that each path from the tank to the sump goes above the tanks water level at some point. If you create the ability for this high point to fill with air, the siphon will stop.



Here is another diagram. The square is a pump and the circle the ocean-motions. Notice that the only change from your original design is looping the plumbing up and back down outside the tank. Plus the addition of the 1/2" pipe to act as a siphon break.

You can certainly throttle back the 1/2" pipe if that worries you, but a 1/2" pipe carries about 5% of the water compared to two 1.5" pipes.
Ok what I can do is bring my sump return up (above the water line) then I can go back down to the 4-way. At the very top (where the return is at its highest) I will have a small pipe coming off and back to the tank.

In my drawing, although it's hard to see, the siphon break tube will be below the teeth. I guess I could plumb that into the face of the overflow about an inch under the teeth.
__________________
Politically Incorrect
& Morally Impaired
  #25  
Old 10/12/2004, 10:08 PM
Harleyguy Harleyguy is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 472
Here are some updated drawings. I took everyone's advice, and this is what I came up with. I will have the return do what my last post stated (for the siphon break). I may also plump the siphon break into the overflow face.

This is an overview


This is looking down inside the overflow

This is the front of the overflow (hole locations)

And last but not least, this is all the holes located in the bottom of the tank
__________________
Politically Incorrect
& Morally Impaired
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef Central™ Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2009