DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas.

[hahnmeister]

Okay, Red Dragons are nothing more than Laguna pumps (Hagen) made by Askioll, then with custom volutes and impellers. So... I was thinking...

What about DIYing one? They sell for $1000 on up if you get the Royal-Exclusiv, but Laguna pond pumps are much cheaper. Then use PVC to make a shroud... much like the 802/pimp my pump mod...
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1
So I suppose Im nominating myself for this, but I might hit the point where I need a CNC or something better than what I have.

The pumps are large, with screw on volutes/shrouds, so reproducing what Royal does shouldnt be that hard. Those out there with CNC machines (SPAZZ!!!) should have no trouble at all once they get their hands on a proper pump.

So the quest is on for a pump. Anyone know which Laguna pumps are the ones Royal Exclusiv uses?

I was looking at my Aquaclear 901, and thinking that it would be a potential candidate as well (Its even part of Laguna's pond pump line). It does 900+ gph with large 1"+ inlets/outlets and only something like 60 watts.
http://www.hagen.com/pdf/aquatic/AquaclearPH_110.pdf
Look at the manual for the 110 (aka 901 or 5000). Its the same as the larger pond pumps!

http://www.hagen.com/pdf/ponds/Utility_Pump_Guide.pdf

http://www.hagen.com/pdf/ponds/Power...-5000-7000.pdf

http://www.hagen.com/pdf/ponds/Water...Pump_Guide.pdf

Seems the 901 is the same as the Laguna Utility 4/WG 2000 (wonder what the 5,6, and 7 could do!).

[hsvtoolfool]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Okay, Red Dragons are nothing more than Laguna pumps (Hagen) made by Askioll...

Hmmm. I thought they made custom motors which was why
the RD are so expensive. Something about a one-of-a-kind
ultra-low-friction shaft or something.

Some creative wood-lathe work may be adequate to build a
pump volute. I have a small lathe, so I may have to experiment
with some spare acrylic or PVC chunks I saved. I've also toyed
with the idea of a belt-driven volute using a DC-motor for variable
speeds, but I like you idea better.

If you're CAD savvy and want some CNC'd plastics, you might try
E-Machine Shop. I've never tried them myself, but I keep them
in the back on my mind for more ambitious projects.

[hahnmeister]

Well they are semi-custom... they take the actual drive mechanism from Askoll and add their own volute, output, and impellers... but the electrical end of the pumps is all Askoll.

[hahnmeister]

Well, Im shocked more people arent interested in this idea.



That part shouldnt be that hard to make at all ouf of PVC.

This is the pump I should end up with after modding the 901...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/cat...roducts_id=646

OR rather, this pump, but Ill do a meshwheel instead...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/cat...roducts_id=657

[Inflames]

Im interested in it. I think most people are under the impression that red dragons cant be duplicated because they have custom made parts. But you have shown that to be false so i'll be tagging along to see how this works out for you.

[Reef55]

It is a fantastic idea, and if I had a CNC I'd be all over helping.

[guido_kp]

im interested also. i dont think you would even absolutely have to have a cnc. the only part that looks like it would have to be machined is the o ring groove - and you could get away with a router table for that. the volute could be milled out with a forstner bit. i have found since i built my cnc, that sometimes its just as easy to do by hand rather than draw it in cad, toolpath it in cam, and machine the actual part.

[Stile2]

I am definately interested.

[hahnmeister]

The o-ring groove... yeah... thats the only hard part really. The rest should be easy to do with PVC... a prototype at least. Then once I get the final dimensions, I can have it CNC'ed out of something nicer maybe.

That makes me think... maybe I should have those volutes for the Aquaclear 801 CNCed as well... then I could run it external. 18-20scfh for a 20 watt pump isnt bad.

[douggiestyle]

is there a patrts break down available for the red dragon? im curious as to what changes they have over the hagen std unit, such as impeller size. i should post some pics of an interesting pump i have from johnson. its housing is similar to the red dragon and the impeller is about triple the size of a mag with the same wattage. the impeller is also some type of self contained contraption. i havent finneshed reverse engineering the thing. maybe i will get to it and post some pics.

[hahnmeister]

finding some very nice pics over at zeovit.com's forums...
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthr...?t=229&page=36

[Stile2]

Hahn,
I tried to pm you but your mailbox is full.

Keith

[hahnmeister]

As you can see, its a Laguna pump w/o a shroud. If you look at the actual pump block, where it attaches to the white BK plate, its the same outline as a 901.

So, that plate serves as an attachment point to the pump's stand, as well as a conversion point for where both the original Laguna volute screws, as well as new Red Dragon Volute screws can meet.

I was thinking it might be easier to make the O-ring groove into the plate rather than the volute. That volute might be tricky enough to duplicate as is w/o a CNC lathe.

Oh, BTW, the eventual plan here is not a needlewheel, but to make a Red Dragon Clone with a meshwheel/threadwheel.

[Inflames]

The plot thickens...

[tanya72806]

they are all made by R-E best of luck but there not laguna pumps

[douggiestyle]

notice the size of the volute when compared to a maxi 1200
also notice the impeller

Torque
@ rated load 78.5 mNm
@ max. efficiency 42.63 mNm
@ max. power 47.95 mNm

Speed
@ no load 3600 rpm
@ rated load 3600 rpm

Power
input @ no load 12.8 W
input @ rated load 42 W
output @ max. efficiency 16.22 W

sorry if this is getting off subject. but maybe this pump will give the desired results after modding with out constructing new valutes and such

[Inflames]

.

ugh stupid cant delete posts.

[andyjd]

Ok i'm interested

[hsvtoolfool]

A little surfing revealed that the axles in the Laguna pumps are
ceramic while RD makes a custom tungsten carbine axle which
is then highly polished to minimize friction.

I also learned that R-E is plauged with imitation RD pumps. The
fakes fail within a year. Beware too-good-to-be-true prices on
RD pumps!

[Stile2]

Didn't really want to post this on the thread but (and this offer is not available to everyone) your message box is full.

Hahn,

I have access to a CNC lathe and mill. It is two hours away, but given some time I would be willing to help out.

Keith

[servicky]

yea know i have a 3 axis cnc if i had a part i could duplicate it no problem.... or if i had come drawing or possibly cads or g code stuff i can do the rest because im not buying a friggin 700.00 pump unless its for my 10,000 gallon tank..

[hahnmeister]

Originally posted by tanya72806
they are all made by R-E best of luck but there not laguna pumps

And how do you think Royal-Exclusiv makes the actual copper-coil/motor business end of the pump? They dont. They are made by Askoll for Royal Exclusiv.

Askoll... hmm... who else do they make pumps for... HAGEN! Hagen makes Laguna. Its actually been discussed before... the heart of a Red Dragon is a Laguna/Hagen Pump. RE just attaches their volute and custom impeller/shaft system.

Well... Ive done that before...

Thanks to all who have offered CNC skills. It may come to that. I think I can get most of this done via my tools, at least a prototype or something with PVC. But for the final...

Also, thanks to onetrickpony for his offer of CNC skills.

Tomorrow, I will start cracking open the 901 I have, and I will post pics.

[quangtam7]

Here is one I am modifying, 1284 gph Laguna 3000 (utility 5), uses about 61-62 watts at 0'


2.5" dia. 3 layer meshwheel, other impeller is maxijet's.


Back side of the impeller


Intake


This is how it looks like once finished.

[hahnmeister]

quangtam7, hey, you beat me to it! Thats the same pump as a 901 really, just one size larger (I think its just a slightly larger impeller thats all).

What did you use for the shroud? Do you have pics of how you made it? It looks like you are building a Klaes skimmer... nice.

Some specs man!! Please. Is that the stock impeller, or how much did you mod it? How thick is that volute (and made from what?). Any preformance results yet?

[servicky]

awesome