The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[jasonh]

If someone were to do this, I would just use styrofoam or great stuff instead. Easier to sculpt, etc, and less risky to the reef

[jasonh]

Originally posted by andbigdaddy2
Has anyone cut open a piece of DIY rock and seen if there is any life in the rock its self after being in a tank or are all the benifits on the surface as unlike real LR where life is all through the rock?

I think a remember someone a couple splits ago doing this...IIRC, there was just as much life as real live rock

[andbigdaddy2]

if thats the case it wouldnt be a benefit to have a solid low weight core as it wont grow bacteria and small critters. So much for that.

[Neptune777]

Originally posted by andbigdaddy2
Has anyone cut open a piece of DIY rock and seen if there is any life in the rock its self after being in a tank or are all the benifits on the surface as unlike real LR where life is all through the rock?

I will now step upon my soap box............Wait...I think I hear applause....no it's just crickets:

IMO "Live Rock" is waaay overrated. Many of the macro organisms are dead upon arrival (questionably beneficial to begin with). What is most important is the bacteria that do all the dirty work in our reefs. DIY rock with the right porosity will have just as much good bacteria over time as "Live Rock" without introducing pests like aiptasia, majanos, red planaria, bryopsis, turf algae, etc. etc. etc....it goes on forever.

Personally.....IMO I think the reef industry (large "Live Rock" suppliers) perpetuate the "need" for rock out of the ocean because they can charge a premium for it and it funds the local economy where they reside (Fiji, Tonga etc.). There are only a few things I need in/on my rock that needs to be seeded from a small supply of ocean "live rock": 1) Bacteria....2)Pods.....3) corraline 'cause it's pretty....everything else is not needed in a captive reef (again IMO)......and they die off over time anyway because the captive reef does not contain all the needs of the the vast variety of organisms that hitchhike on "live rock".

The only caveat of using 90% DIY or base rock is you need to take more time to allow the tank to stabilize and mature.

[Neptune777]

Originally posted by jasonh
If someone were to do this, I would just use styrofoam or great stuff instead. Easier to sculpt, etc, and less risky to the reef

Some.....again I say some not all....have experienced issues using styrofoam and great stuff because it breaks down over time in water. Also, making Portland cement rocks is a snap...couldn't be easier!

[andbigdaddy2]

While my question may have seemed slanted toward LR being better what i wanted to know was weather when cut open they were the same. So no need for the box your preaching to the choir.

Originally posted by andbigdaddy2
if thats the case it wouldnt be a benefit to have a solid low weight core as it wont grow bacteria and small critters. So much for that.

[Neptune777]

Originally posted by Insane Reefer
That is the perk to using the fast set cements.

That is why I am so hip on trying the Calcium Chloride as an additive - turn portland into something that reacts more like a fast set.

I've not been able to find Bomix anywhere locally...

I have used Calcium Chloride in my latest batches using Peladow and the gray Type I/II portland cement. You only need 2% volume of calcium chloride in the mix (dissolved in water) to be effective at speeding up the cure by 2/3. I will test the PH in a day or so after the salt release. I tried this on Quikwall but gave up because I didn't like the results of Quikwall.....as I mentioned earlier.

[Neptune777]

Originally posted by andbigdaddy2
While my question may have seemed slanted toward LR being better what i wanted to know was weather when cut open they were the same. So no need for the box your preaching to the choir.

No it will not look the same on a macro level because the animals you are looking for were never introduced to begin with. On a microscopic level I would bet that they are very similar.

By the way.....I was just joking earlier about being on a soap box......Capiche?

[salty joe]

Somewhere on this thread I saw a picture of a bag of Custom Building brand grout. This grout has a fungicide or moldicide or something to deter mold & mildew. Also, who knows what is used to get different colors.

[sunkool]

Polyblend is reef safe. MSDS

Here is a pick of a grout rock made in December. It was in my tank in 10 days of making it.



Colors avalable.
I'd like to see rock made with lipstic #420 mixed with captians blue #387 to make a coraline purple color.

[Yinepu]

nice rock, where did you find the polyblend? Did you mix it with anything?

[Neptune777]

I want to go to school here:

http://www.jpjtechnologies.com/index.php

Looks like fun!

[impur]

I am considering using some perlite in the middle of my DIY rocks, and using white portland around it. I'd like some lighter rocks, some of the ones i made with grey cement are ridiculously heavy.

See any problems with this?

[Neptune777]

Originally posted by impur
I am considering using some perlite in the middle of my DIY rocks, and using white portland around it. I'd like some lighter rocks, some of the ones i made with grey cement are ridiculously heavy.

See any problems with this?

Not really.....Has anyone tried growing coral on a perlcrete rock yet? I have not had a chance to try it myself.

[impur]

Not that i've read. But the perlcrete will be covered by the portland cement/sand/OS mixture.

It might just be more of a pain in the arse than anything though...

[Insane Reefer]

Andbigdaddy2, what you are asking is hard to quantify. The clearest answer I think any of us can give you is, yes, the rock we make can harbor any organism that real life rock can, if the rock is exposed to an environment where it can pick-up those organisms.
However. for the most part, it is like comparing pears to oranges - most MMLR never goes anywhere near the ocean, and so is not able to pick up the plethora of organisms that can be found on real live rock. Real live rock, fresh from the ocean, is filthy with life, inside and out - but most of that life dies before any of us ever see it. But as Neptune noted, a lot of those organisms aren't necessarily beneficial, though I think the list of beneficial critters he listed needs to be expanded to include several worm types, but we all got what he was saying.
Aquaculture centers, like TBS, GARF or Gulf-View are dumping MMLR into the ocean and leaving it for 5-10 years before harvesting, so I'm sure you see, even when we go to the effort to seed with lots of quality rock, it will be a long, long time before it can truly compare with real LR, and like Neptune said (I think), in a captive system, the rock will never have a chance to get all the neat (or scary) stuff that you get when you pull it from the ocean. I know that sounds like an argument for not using MMLR, but it is the truth, plain and simple. On the upside, the organisms we really need, and do the most for our systems, replicate rather quickly, and the rock can become functional as a filter in just a few weeks.
If you are really interested, this article is an aquaculture study - it was done on MMLR (cement and mined terrestrial) that had been sitting in the ocean off the coast of Florida for quite a while, and it compares which types had the most life.
http://www.hccfl.edu/br/asprograms/a...0868BFB18F.pdf

Neptune, Did the rock setup faster with the Calcium Chloride? And was Peladow the brand? Where did you find it? And that Rock Making School does sound like fun - maybe they should add reef rock to their syllabus

Sunkool, since you have the supply and don't mind using colored grout, you should be the one to try mixing for color.
FYI, at one point, I was making coasters with colored grout, and I had a hard time with mixing for color - the grout blend I was using was nice and colorful when used as mixed, but if I tried to combine two colors, I often ended up with muddy colors.

Impur, perlite is hard to work with - imagine a busted bean-bag chair, and trying to get the beans back in - that would be what trying to put perlite into the center of a mmlr would be like. Just mix it in - I have honestly not had a problem with it "shedding" off - any normal flakes that fall off have enough weight that they do sink. Besides - if the worst case scenario happened, and for some reason the rock cracked, you'd have a perlite spill that would be a pain to clean up...

And no Neptune, I don't think anyone has tried growing coral on Percrete yet, lol - we've only just started playing with it, and the first piece I know of (Disco Dancing Rock) has only been in a system for like two or three weeks now...
Algae is growing on it, so would be safe to say that the potential for coral to take to it is pretty high

[andbigdaddy2]

Originally posted by sunkool


Polyblend is reef safe. MSDS

Here is a pick of a grout rock made in December. It was in my tank in 10 days of making it.



Colors avalable.
I'd like to see rock made with lipstic #420 mixed with captians blue #387 to make a coraline purple color.

Nice! Why do you think it had a shorter cure time 10 days is a lot less than others are saying for portland. When this product has portland in it.

[Neptune777]

Originally posted by Insane Reefer
Andbigdaddy2, what you are asking is hard to quantify. The clearest answer I think any of us can give you is, yes, the rock we make can harbor any organism that real life rock can, if the rock is exposed to an environment where it can pick-up those organisms.
However. for the most part, it is like comparing pears to oranges - most MMLR never goes anywhere near the ocean, and so is not able to pick up the plethora of organisms that can be found on real live rock. Real live rock, fresh from the ocean, is filthy with life, inside and out - but most of that life dies before any of us ever see it. But as Neptune noted, a lot of those organisms aren't necessarily beneficial, though I think the list of beneficial critters he listed needs to be expanded to include several worm types, but we all got what he was saying.
Aquaculture centers, like TBS, GARF or Gulf-View are dumping MMLR into the ocean and leaving it for 5-10 years before harvesting, so I'm sure you see, even when we go to the effort to seed with lots of quality rock, it will be a long, long time before it can truly compare with real LR, and like Neptune said (I think), in a captive system, the rock will never have a chance to get all the neat (or scary) stuff that you get when you pull it from the ocean. I know that sounds like an argument for not using MMLR, but it is the truth, plain and simple. On the upside, the organisms we really need, and do the most for our systems, replicate rather quickly, and the rock can become functional as a filter in just a few weeks.
If you are really interested, this article is an aquaculture study - it was done on MMLR (cement and mined terrestrial) that had been sitting in the ocean off the coast of Florida for quite a while, and it compares which types had the most life.
http://www.hccfl.edu/br/asprograms/a...0868BFB18F.pdf

Neptune, Did the rock setup faster with the Calcium Chloride? And was Peladow the brand? Where did you find it? And that Rock Making School does sound like fun - maybe they should add reef rock to their syllabus

Sunkool, since you have the supply and don't mind using colored grout, you should be the one to try mixing for color.
FYI, at one point, I was making coasters with colored grout, and I had a hard time with mixing for color - the grout blend I was using was nice and colorful when used as mixed, but if I tried to combine two colors, I often ended up with muddy colors.

Impur, perlite is hard to work with - imagine a busted bean-bag chair, and trying to get the beans back in - that would be what trying to put perlite into the center of a mmlr would be like. Just mix it in - I have honestly not had a problem with it "shedding" off - any normal flakes that fall off have enough weight that they do sink. Besides - if the worst case scenario happened, and for some reason the rock cracked, you'd have a perlite spill that would be a pain to clean up...

And no Neptune, I don't think anyone has tried growing coral on Percrete yet, lol - we've only just started playing with it, and the first piece I know of (Disco Dancing Rock) has only been in a system for like two or three weeks now...
Algae is growing on it, so would be safe to say that the potential for coral to take to it is pretty high

"But as Neptune noted, a lot of those organisms aren't necessarily beneficial, though I think the list of beneficial critters he listed needs to be expanded to include several worm types, but we all got what he was saying."

Although the worms might be beneficial....they are not "necessary". Same goes for Pods, corraline etc......show me a tank that does not survive without the presence of these items and then I will agree that they are needed to sustaine corals in captivity.

Peladow is a brand....it's a de-icer sold at HD, Lowes, Sams, Walmart etc...but tends to be seasonal. Yes the rock did set up faster. I am not convinced yet that this will cause a quicker drop in PH......tests will determine that. Check out Randy Holmes Farley's articles on Two-part Solutions (Ca Chloride is one of the Ingredients and he lists suppliers)


A simple perlcrete frag plug would be a good test....I know I mentioned using Pelite just a short while ago in this thread... and I have not personally put any into a system (although I have made several pieces......) I am just not comfortable saying it is reef safe unless we pass this last test. Algae will grow on just about anything....corals are another story.

[Insane Reefer]

Neptune - that is a debate for another thread and another day.
Today is my wedding anniversary, and I am trying my best not to be contentious

So on the calcium front, you basically used your reef calcium to do the test pieces? I was thinking of that, but I have Kent Liquid Calcium, and am really unsure as to how to measure that for the right ratio...

So I think I will have to make a trip to ACE and buy some powdered Calcium Chloride.

EDIT: Opps - just saw that you used a commercial brand of de-icer - sorry - got confused with the mention of Two-Part, lol.

[Neptune777]

Originally posted by Insane Reefer
Neptune - that is a debate for another thread and another day.
Today is my wedding anniversary, and I am trying my best not to be contentious

So on the calcium front, you basically used your reef calcium to do the test pieces? I was thinking of that, but I have Kent Liquid Calcium, and am really unsure as to how to measure that for the right ratio...

So I think I will have to make a trip to ACE and buy some powdered Calcium Chloride.

EDIT: Opps - just saw that you used a commercial brand of de-icer - sorry - got confused with the mention of Two-Part, lol.

Happy anniversary!

[Insane Reefer]

Originally posted by Neptune777
A simple perlcrete frag plug would be a good test....
Algae will grow on just about anything....corals are another story.

Would something like this be an acceptable test subject?


What sort of corals did you have in mind? It could take a while for something like shrooms or polyps to start dividing on a new plug, though I'm pretty sure they will anchor just fine.
Encrusting corals, like star polyps would be a good test animal I'm thinking, but again, it usually takes mine about 3 or 4 weeks to start showing visible signs of attachment and new growth.

I have both shrooms and stars that I would be willing to use to test this, if you'd like. I could do the frags tomorrow, and then it will be a waiting game...

[sunkool]

Originally posted by andbigdaddy2
Nice! Why do you think it had a shorter cure time 10 days is a lot less than others are saying for portland. When this product has portland in it.

I did't test ph. Had no reason to. When you only put a small 2lb rock in a 125g with 45g sump it won't change the ph. I would not put more than that in the tank without testing. it did take the green star polyps about 6 weeks to attach and start spreading.

[andbigdaddy2]

Originally posted by sunkool
I did't test ph. Had no reason to. When you only put a small 2lb rock in a 125g with 45g sump it won't change the ph. I would not put more than that in the tank without testing. it did take the green star polyps about 6 weeks to attach and start spreading.

Ok but why wait 10 days then did it take that long to dry?
How long would it take to cure? I got the impression it only takes 10 days. Will it take just as long as Portland?

[sunkool]

If you read the msds you will see that it is portland, sand and coloring. It would cure in the same time that all the rest.

[Insane Reefer]

I'm not sure - it is sort of hard to see, but it looks like the bag says "Polymer Fortified". If this is the case, that would likely put it in the "fast-set" category, and fast-sets usually are pH stable when they have finished curing - the bag should give a cure time on it (when it has finished hydration (max strength achieved) - I think a lot of fast sets say something like 3 days - not sure on grouts though). If that is the case, the rock was likely cured before putting it in the tank - much like Mr Wilson's fast set cement covered plumbing, and in that event, wouldn't have needed much, if any, in the way of kuring.
Polymer and epoxy fortified cements (and one would assume grouts too) tend to fall in the "waterproof" category - this doesn't mean it won't work (especially when aggregates other than sand are used), it just means that the cement itself won't tend to absorb water like traditional portland does (you know, like when it rains and the sidewalks turn dark and stay that way for a while - that is the cement absorbing the rain and holding it for a while). I think that absorption factor is part of the key to rock with high biological filtration capacity. I've not seen anything to substantiate this either way, but it is my opinion that the waterproof cements will work for biological filtration, but not nearly as well as the non-fortified portland does.