clam X prefers sand is bunk! - Page 6

mbbuna · #**126** 08/03/2007, 06:46 PM

i see Eric is in the house, have anything to add?

manderx · #**127** 08/04/2007, 01:13 AM

i'll contact my friend and get clarification.

SERVO · #**128** 08/12/2007, 04:05 PM

Give a reef hobbiest an ecosystem, he thinks he's a Biologist.

Anyway...... antecdote aside, here is an awesome Crocea from Palau. The bay was a little murky, but the colors blew me away! There were a ton that should have been in your book James. Thanks again for speaking at last years DFWMAS's Next Wave.

ezcompany · #**129** 08/12/2007, 08:03 PM

:O what a gorgeous Crocea...

senatormoe31 · #**130** 08/12/2007, 11:17 PM

READ J. FATHERREE and you can all stop wondering.

mbbuna · #**131** 08/12/2007, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by senatormoe31
READ J. FATHERREE and you can all stop wondering.

stop wondering about what?

senatormoe31 · #**132** 08/12/2007, 11:41 PM

I hadn't realized that Mr. F. had already posted, I only read the first few pages and the last page and didn't see his posts.
I was saying that if they read his book they would see his findings and research and know just what he said here.
THE ANSWERS.
I mean the man is a recognized expert on the subject.
The week his book hit our store in PHX, reading it directly saved about 6 hobbiests clams with issues. That was the first week. The man knows what he is talking about.
CAlfo and Fenner use his research to solidify their discussion of clams in "Reef Invertabrates".
And those guys are no dumbies either.
I think KALKBREATH is irresponsible and about 4 bottles short of a six pack.
Havevn't heard irrational blather like that, EVER.

mbbuna · #**133** 08/12/2007, 11:51 PM

now im really wondering what to stop wondering about. do you disagree with the first page (the part that was on topic)

senatormoe31 · #**134** 08/13/2007, 11:34 AM

I was just saying that if you buy a "credible" book, you won't have to argue with people about things that aren't really debated, by scholars anyway. meaning that certain things we (as a hobby) know to be true and some we know are false.
I'm not talking to anyone specifically, just seems that many people are resistant to purchase books. We all want answers "now" from "someone-anyone" who will type and click.
That's all- just recommending books for people who have none.

Kalkbreath · #**135** 08/13/2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:

And those guys are no dumbies either.
I think KALKBREATH is irresponsible and about 4 bottles short of a six pack.
Havevn't heard irrational blather like that, EVER.

We still know so little about tridacna clams, that its kinda silly to call anyone an expert.
Do not get me wrong, I dont have these questions answered either.
BUT its kinda premature to end the scientific debate dont you say ? when even the basic concept of how clams feed has yet to be determined.
Sure they( Tridacna) have symbiont algae
and the clams seem to allow the zooxanthellae to take up residence inside the clam. But how exactly nutrients are trans located to and from the host and algae has never been fully demonstrated.

Even more importantly with regards to the aquarium husbandry, aquarium specific research is in short supply and needs to be conducted to determine if removing a clam from its natural habitat , changes the clams feeding requirements (relationship between host and symbiont.)

I have spent countless hours observing zooxanthellea under a scope and have witnessed the changes the algae undergo while in captivity. Even simple changes like increasing bulb watts from 250 to 400 and 1000 can cause easily viewable changes withing the clams.

The outdated studies most experts base their husbandry advise, came from observing clams in or from the wild.

As for being out of line and taking the train of thought on a completely new track, I welcome competing viewpoints.

I welcome a logical explanation of how captive clams or corals dont undergo biological adaptations while in captivity.

I believe in order to move forward in the science of keeping clams in captivity....its first important to ask the right questions.

mbbuna · #**136** 08/13/2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kalkbreath
when even the basic concept of how clams feed has yet to be determined.
Sure they( Tridacna) have symbiont algae
and the clams seem to allow the zooxanthellae to take up residence inside the clam. But how exactly nutrients are trans located to and from the host and algae has never been fully demonstrated.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...gi?artid=59491

http://pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cgi-bin/r...61_ns_nf_cjfas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylsulfoniopropionate

http://www.marine.uq.edu.au/ohg/HG%2...%20and%20HG%20(1999)%20DFAA.pdf

you have to pay for this one

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...4gfw9wp6.alice

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/conten...resourcetype=1

http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/content/...resourcetype=1

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...ac20fd1faf1f1f

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...d4c7e04e8261d5

http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/reprint/183/3/503

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0028-646X(198307)94%3A3%3C421%3ATRODPO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U

http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/content/abstract/169/1/230

http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/2/213

http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/reprint/199/2/108.pdf

i may have posted a link twice

and i have some more if you intrested

Kalkbreath · #**137** 08/13/2007, 01:54 PM

And what husbandry advise did you obtain from these links?

mbbuna · #**138** 08/13/2007, 02:07 PM

it explains how clams get there food. you said it hasn't been studied and isn't under stood. if you read them you will understand.

"And what husbandry advise did you obtain from these links?"

dont you get tired from all the wandering around in circles you do?

Kalkbreath · #**139** 08/13/2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

In bivalves, symbiotic dinoflagellates enter via the mouth, and exit via the anus (Ricard and Salvat, 1977; Trench et al., 1981; Maruyama and Heslinga, 1997); their entire residence in the clam is in association with the digestive system. In contrast, symbionts in cnidarians enter and exit via the mouth and eventually take up residence inside of host digestive cells. The location of the symbionts in bivalves and cnidarians is also analogous with respect to metabolite flux between host and symbiont (Fitt et al., 1985). In bivalves, where the algae are intercellular, they are separated from the hemolymph (circulating nutrients) by the proximal and distal plasmalemma of the tubule cells (Fig. 7). Hence, nutrient exchange between the algae and the hemolymph of bivalves may potentially be regulated by the tubule cells

These works shed little light on the details of the processes and are no more then visual observations.
"I saw a hemolymph , it was next to the Zooxanthellae filled tubule.
"May potentially be regulated" is hardly an explaination .
"association with the digestive system " is hardly useful clarification.

mbbuna · #**140** 08/13/2007, 02:13 PM

theres no way you read all those links yet. step away from the microscope and read them.

quote from kalk
"I have studied clams for a few years now; under the microscope, one can clearly witness the zooxanthella inside a clam's blood stream "

Kalkbreath · #**141** 08/13/2007, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Its dominance among the photosynthetic compounds released from isolated algal cells incubated with host homogenate may reflect a general shift in metabolism associated with the physiological responses either to isolation from the symbiosis or to the host homogenate (Goiran et al., 1997Go

Quote:

Second, the symbiosis in A. viridis may be metabolically different from many symbioses, linked to its exclusively high latitude distribution

Quote:

Finally, the identity of the mobile photosynthetic compounds may vary with environmental conditions..

This last quote in red is exactly what I have been attempting to convey. That clams vary with each environment.
Most of these links I have seen before.
In fact I based many of my conclusions (that captive raised clams are biologically different) and generalizations made based solely on species type without concern for the effects varying habitats have on each individual clam's unique biological footprint ........shows a poor understanding of just how complex these animals are.

What did you get from reading these links?

senatormoe31 · #**142** 08/13/2007, 10:00 PM

Good luck ya'll. I don't think this is "helping" anyone (especially someone new), so I'm outa here.
I use metaphores when explaining things to folks but Kalk, to say that a clam getting sand in his syphon is like me having sandy buggers after a day at the beach....
You got me speachless.

I'm outa here.

Kalkbreath · #**143** 08/14/2007, 01:14 PM

Sand settling onto clams after a storm stirs up the reef out in the wild is a common event. Not duplicated in most aquariums.
The idea that clams may benefit from this naturally occurring event might seem new..... but then again Im a new kind of teacher.
Some even think it aides in clam digestion and calcium supplementation for the clams.... not just the gill the cleaning I mentioned previously.

I know your fond of my metaphors:

It may aid in clam digestion kinda like as in a chicken which eats sand and small stones to help aid its stomach to grind and digest .

The sand may also act as a cleansing agent much like a bird taking a sand or dust bath or even as in an elephant throwing dirt onto its back to rid itself of pests and other colonizing bacteria.

........but I still like the bugger metaphor best!

smithcreek · #**144** 08/14/2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kalkbreath
Some even think it aides in clam digestion and calcium supplementation for the clams...

...kinda like as in a chicken which eats sand and small stones to help aid its stomach to grind and digest .

Now I get it!!! I finally understand the whole different species/domestication/genetic thing you're talking about. The clams in our tanks have gizzards! You should have just said that to start with.

Kalkbreath · #**145** 08/14/2007, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smithcreek
Now I get it!!! I finally understand the whole different species/domestication/genetic thing you're talking about. The clams in our tanks have gizzards! You should have just said that to start with.

Exactly! and chickens which are deprived of suitable pebbles to eat dont digest their food as well.

jmaneyapanda · #**146** 08/15/2007, 07:19 AM

Kalk- please use caution with comments like these. Once again, you are absolutely INCORRECT. Chickens can survive just fine without any additon grit or stone in their gizzard. I can very accurately detail the biomechanical or biochemical operation of a birds digestive tract, but that is not the topic here. But, please dont embarrass yourself anymore by making outlandish comments and analogies like this- they are not true.

smithcreek · #**147** 08/15/2007, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kalkbreath
Exactly! and chickens which are deprived of suitable pebbles to eat dont digest their food as well.

Are you talking about domesticated chickens or wild chickens? One interesting fact is that wild chickens, much like some of their bi-valve relatives, still have the ability to produce pearls. Domesticated chickens don't have that ability anymore. So they eat the sand or pebble, to aid in digestion, but occasionally it gets lodged somewhere it's not supposed to, and gets turned into a pearl.

There are native tribes that still eat the wild chickens and when they shuck them they often find pearls. That's actually where the saying "chicken of the sea" came from.

Kalkbreath · #**148** 08/15/2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmaneyapanda
Kalk- please use caution with comments like these. Once again, you are absolutely INCORRECT. Chickens can survive just fine without any additon grit or stone in their gizzard. I can very accurately detail the biomechanical or biochemical operation of a birds digestive tract, but that is not the topic here. But, please dont embarrass yourself anymore by making outlandish comments and analogies like this- they are not true.

Can "survive" is not the same as "thrive".

Perhaps domestic chickens much like my theoretical "domestica clams" .....have been cultivated to the point that they are better suited to domestic feeding and captive life?
Not having the same husbandry requirements as wild stock can have its advantages.(wink)

jmaneyapanda · #**149** 08/15/2007, 03:53 PM

Ok, fine. Chickens can thrive completely without such material in the gastrointestinal system as you described. If you would care to rebut that, please provide the information. I have known and worked with many different fowl species professionally, and NONE REQUIRED such conditions as you mentioned to thrive.

Again, please be cautious with your comparisons and analogies. I no longer feel frustrated with this discussion, but instead, I am beginning to feel embarassed for you. I dont think you have your foot in your mouth- I think you're up to your knee now.

jfatherree · #**150** 08/15/2007, 05:58 PM

"Some even think it aides in clam digestion and calcium supplementation for the clams.... not just the gill the cleaning I mentioned previously."

Post references, please.

Who are these "some" you mention? I'm thinking it's more like one person that did too much acid in high school that posts things they see in their nightime dreams and doesn't know the difference between them and reality.