Reduced nitrates - bio-balls

[tmz]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
So the bottom line would be to remove the bioballs slowly and let the bacteria cycle in the live rock to take up the absence of the functioning bioballs.

I'm reading too much of this. I think I actually understood that. Is proximity theory anything like time and relativity?

[tmz]

Originally posted by MFULKERSIN
my tank has been up and going for 11 months, we have 150+ lbs of live rock and 1.5-2.0 inch sand bed, coraline algae everywhere.....

when we switched from the bioballs to sump/fuge it was Tues last week...on thursday is when we first noticed the sps stressed

I tested the water and everything was about par..for our tank...[we have always fought the nitrate war...20-30ppm - hence the reason to go from sump w/bioballs to sump/fuge for macroalgae and mangroves....

we originally thought that the sps was stressed becuase we had a temp flux ...83 to 74 and back to 79... in 24 hours

the following day [friday] tested water again and found a spike in nitrates to about 60-80ppm, and more sps stress and frogspawn wilt

Right then we completed 25 gal water change [little over 25% change]

Saturday tested water to find nitrate high still, and then discovered the ammonia

Mon [last night] nitrates back up to 60-80ppm....more 80 than 60....

completed a 15 gallon change

TODAY

sps all dead....but cats paw and green birds nest
frogspawn still wilted
but other lps opening up
kenya tree opening up

nitrate 30-40ppm
nitrite 0
ammonia .25
phospates 0
ph 8.3
sg 1.020-1.021
calc 480
kh 214.8
temp 79ish

To respond to your question. Your bacteria populations should catch up with the load in time.
For right now, you might try some poly pad . Rinsing and thawing your frozen food to get rid of the packing water is a good thing to do.As a general practice I like to puff off the sand lightly as well as the rock every few days to put the detrius in the watercolumn where the skimmer can get a shot at it and the oranics before they turn to nitrate.
Longer term an 1.5 to 2 inch sand bed will not remove nitrate. It is likely to have much the same effect as bioballs in producing nitrate and may trap detrius. Some critters to stir it up would help such as cerith snails, nausaurius snails and perhaps even a diamond goby.A shallow bed for aesthetics( best is very fine grain) is not a bad thing if you can keep it clean. It will process amonia and likely some nitrite.If you wan't to process nitrate into free nitrogen you need at least a 3.5 to 4 inch sand bed. A remote bed is more easily managed than one in a display. Good Luck

[m2434]

Originally posted by tmz
I'm reading too much of this. I think I actually understood that. Is proximity theory anything like time and relativity?

Maybe, it will all be connected once and for all. I even hear people are now keeping branes in their aquaiums. Imagine what that could mean - just hope they don't collide

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by m2434
Maybe, it will all be connected once and for all. I even hear people are now keeping branes in their aquaiums. Imagine what that could mean - just hope they don't collide

my wife always says my brain is somewhere else-never in my tank however

[capn_hylinur]

[i]. A remote bed is more easily managed than one in a display. Good Luck [/B]

interesting concept--please tell more

Have you looked at the mangrove thread I posted--it seems like this might be what you are referring to?

[tmz]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
interesting concept--please tell more

Have you looked at the mangrove thread I posted--it seems like this might be what you are referring to?

Hi,
No I haven't seen that thread but I'd like to if you can post the link. .
A. Calfo in a number early threads on RC and other writings advocates the use of a remote sand bed which could be as simplle as a salt buckett .He provides good detail. Any resevoir can be used and it's simply a matter of a few inches of water(preferably prefiltered) in and out plumbing to flow over the sand. The buckett or other resevoir is covered and kept dark to prevent algae growth. It is also noted that if argonite sand is used it can contribute to calcium and alkalinity in a small but positive way. Some folks use play sand for the majority of mass and seed it with live sand. They report positive results but I'm not to keen on that media intuitively. I use a 30gallon breeder with a deep sand bed( well it was a deep sand bed two years ago now it's about 3.5 to 5 inches in different spots). I need to replinish soon. I do not keep it dark and it has over time turned into a propagation tank for lps and zoanthus. I am considering adding another dark remote dsb.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by tmz
Hi,
No I haven't seen that thread but I'd like to if you can post the link. .
A. Calfo in a number early threads on RC and other writings advocates the use of a remote sand bed which could be as simplle as a salt buckett .He provides good detail. Any resevoir can be used and it's simply a matter of a few inches of water(preferably prefiltered) in and out plumbing to flow over the sand. The buckett or other resevoir is covered and kept dark to prevent algae growth. It is also noted that if argonite sand is used it can contribute to calcium and alkalinity in a small but positive way. Some folks use play sand for the majority of mass and seed it with live sand. They report positive results but I'm not to keen on that media intuitively. I use a 30gallon breeder with a deep sand bed( well it was a deep sand bed two years ago now it's about 3.5 to 5 inches in different spots). I need to replinish soon. I do not keep it dark and it has over time turned into a propagation tank for lps and zoanthus. I am considering adding another dark remote dsb.

Tom, the refug that is being used for the mangroves sounds like what you are describing--interested in your thoughts because I am considering adding this.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1258496

[tmz]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
Tom, the refug that is being used for the mangroves sounds like what you are describing--interested in your thoughts because I am considering adding this.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1258496

I like the mangrove idea. It certainly is an aestheticaly pleasing display and should do a good bit on nitrate and phosphate. How could it not? It may not ,however, be as efficent as a simpler in the dark rdsb, particularly on nitrates. I mean you've got the lighting and probably a bit more maintenance. A hundred of them for the price he paid is certainly reasonalbe. iwould need at least 50 and just don't have a place for it.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by tmz
I like the mangrove idea. It certainly is an aestheticaly pleasing display and should do a good bit on nitrate and phosphate. How could it not? It may not ,however, be as efficent as a simpler in the dark rdsb, particularly on nitrates. I mean you've got the lighting and probably a bit more maintenance. A hundred of them for the price he paid is certainly reasonalbe. iwould need at least 50 and just don't have a place for it.

the only thing I question is that sooner or later when the nitrates and or phosphates are reduced to a very low level---what do mangroves live on then?

[tmz]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
the only thing I question is that sooner or later when the nitrates and or phosphates are reduced to a very low level---what do mangroves live on then?

I would say fish poo and food,coral slime etc. or some direct feeding with nitrate. Another balancing act which gains complexity with diversity.

[capn_hylinur]

yeah--it comes back to that question of whether or not is possible to over filter or over skim our systems putting that balancing act of whack for many of the processes that are going on in our tanks

[m2434]

I'd like to know who's the best scavenger of that last bit of nltrates - micro algae, macro algae, mangroves, corals, or something else? Somehow I doubt my tank will ever get "clean" enough to find out...

[tmz]

Originally posted by m2434
I'd like to know who's the best scavenger of that last bit of nltrates - micro algae, macro algae, mangroves, corals, or something else? Somehow I doubt my tank will ever get "clean" enough to find out...

Probably so if you wan't to keep stony corals . But inverts and some of the deep water or lagoon based corals and macroalgaes need more need more organics than those that live on the reef crest.Corals that tend to rely on absorbtion such as anthelia ,xenia and other octorals will wane in extremely low nutrient conditions ,in my experience. So in addition to the differences in flow and lighting requirements for corals and macroalgaes it is important to consider their varying needs for nutrients if you wan't a mixed and diverse environment which is up to the individual aquarist.
As a reference point reef surface waters contain about .1ppm of nitrate,a level which could probably not be achieved in a captive environment. However, deeper waters contain from.5 to 2.5ppm(5 to 25 times as much). So how much nutrient control you employ depends on what you wish to keep in a system and the more diversity you wan't the harder it is to balance the needs of all of the organisms. Further ,water at the reef crest is as low as .005ppm phosphate and anything below.03ppm limits phytoplankton.

[MFULKERSIN]

any idea how long it will take for the ammonia to cycle out? we still have .25 ammonia


nitrate 30-40-----was 80-100
nitrite 0
phosphates 0
calcium 400
spec grav 1.022
ph 8.3


both
mangroves in and
chaeto in TODAY

[m2434]

Ammonia should be gone by now. Either your test kit is bad or there is still an ammonia source.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by MFULKERSIN
any idea how long it will take for the ammonia to cycle out? we still have .25 ammonia


nitrate 30-40-----was 80-100
nitrite 0
phosphates 0
calcium 400
spec grav 1.022
ph 8.3


both
mangroves in and
chaeto in TODAY

I've lost track here--sorry how long has your tank been running?

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by m2434
I'd like to know who's the best scavenger of that last bit of nltrates - micro algae, macro algae, mangroves, corals, or something else? Somehow I doubt my tank will ever get "clean" enough to find out...

Its more a question of a number of variables not in any order:

a good protein skimmer--and good maintenance of it
biweekly water changes
using r/0 water
use of a chaeto refugium and harvesting the chaeto regularily
use of a mangrove/ mud refugium
turkey basting substrate and live rock weekly
20 times or better flow in the main tank
feed less but more often
rinse off all frozen foods with r/0 water before using
use of phosban and carbon --run in small reactors
removing all filter materia--foam etc
removing bioballs if you have themd
water changing the sump to dry once a month
making sure all areas receive some sort of flow--eg once a week direct a power head behind the reef.

IMO all or any combination of these is going to make a difference as opposed to focusing on just one thing.

[MFULKERSIN]

Little over 11 months

[MFULKERSIN]

Weve used 2 different kits

The reef master kit liquid drops---reads between 0 and .25

and the quick dip strip for ammonia reads also between 0 and .25

~ the only sps that surrived was the green birds nest, maroon pavona and cats paw

we lost a huge frogspawn

and my 2 RBTA and acan are not looking so good

Is there something I could be missing?

I wa thinking of taking a sample of my water to LFS and see what they read it as

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by MFULKERSIN
Weve used 2 different kits

The reef master kit liquid drops---reads between 0 and .25

and the quick dip strip for ammonia reads also between 0 and .25

~ the only sps that surrived was the green birds nest, maroon pavona and cats paw

we lost a huge frogspawn

and my 2 RBTA and acan are not looking so good

Is there something I could be missing?

I wa thinking of taking a sample of my water to LFS and see what they read it as

that's a very good idea--taking a water sample to the LFS.

Did you remove the dead and dying corals?--they will have some impact on the ammonia levels. Did anything else die behind the rocks etc that wasn't removed.

The spike in the ammonia should have only lasted 1-2 days. Remember when your tank first cycled--the spikes didn't last that long if the very even evident at all.

If at all possible set up a qt tank---and remove the acan and anenomes to it.

I have a feeling you are caught up in a spiral here----something dies off--increases the ammonia--causes more death--causes more ammonia etc--faster then the bacteria can cyle--eventually leading to a total tank crash.

By removing some of the biomass you will buy time for the cycling of bacteria to catch up and break the spiral.

Once you have qt'd some --then do a water change every other day until that ammonia level disappears. I don't think you are looking at a lot of time if you qt some of the biomass.

[m2434]

Sorry to hear that. I think capn covered it. Have someone else test the ammonia. It shouldn't still be up, if it is, there is probably something decaying and insuficirent LR/LS. Let us know what happens. Best of luck

[bertoni]

Some Prime or Amquel will help with any ammonia. I'd also run a bunch of carbon and keep up with the water changes.

[tmz]

One addtion to cpn's lsit for nitrate removal would be a remote deep sand bed.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by tmz
One addtion to cpn's lsit for nitrate removal would be a remote deep sand bed.

thanks tom, I was assuming a deep sand bed in a refugium was covering it

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by bertoni
Some Prime or Amquel will help with any ammonia. I'd also run a bunch of carbon and keep up with the water changes.

a wise suggestion oh great mentor (sorry Randy, you were gone so Jonathan, boomer and billybeau had to do the work in reprogramming me from past misconceptions )

MFULKERSIN's---this might be a great his and hers xmas present for each other--duel reactors--one for phosban, one for carbon--about 40 dollars a piece.
(beats underware and socks)