Azno3

[melev]

For the past two weeks, I've not used anything to remove phosphate. Whenever something odd happens in my tank, I tend to shy away from any extra equipment and take things offline for a duration. There are times when I think have GFO in the system isn't the wisest move, but then other days I feel it'll do the job. Rather wishy-washy, I know.

My latest test two days ago, PO4 was nearly undetectable.

For the past couple of years, I've been using GFO from various companies, but what always works and works well for me is CaribSea's Phosbuster Pro. It might be the same Lanthanum chloride in a bottle that Blue Life is now selling, I don't know.

I do need to be harvesting macro algae out of my refugium more often. That is a good means of export that I don't implement nearly enough.

[Boomer]

Carlo

I understand what you're saying Boomer but other people have experienced problems. I know I've seen it myself. You can even read about it here at RC with people dropping their nitrates to fast with vodka

And for the 3rd time Carlo they do not have nitrates in the 30, 40 and 60 like Marc. You are comparing apples and oranges. SHOW me some who has nitrates as high as Marc and on this.

[jdieck]

IMO droping Nitrates fast down to the point were criters are still not limited by Nitrates is safe beyond that point I would go slow.
Having said that the method of droping nitrates may afect other parameters that in turn may afect the critters, not the nitrate but the most usual is drop in oxygen and/or trace elements and or some organics due to the sudden increase in skimming performance.

[cayars]

Yes, exactly Jose. Some coral themselves can also be directly affected by a sudden drop in nitrates too. But it's mostly the other processes going on in the tank that indirectly affect the corals and their food sources.

Boomer, go read some of the vodka threads or better yet the Zeovit and other low nutrient systems and reed some of the stories where people dropped the nitrogen sources quickly with very bad outcomes. There are plenty of these around.

Carlo

[Boomer]

For the 4th time Carlo they are not dropping nitrates from 30, 40 or 60 ppm down to 15, 20 or 30 will effect nothing. That is way above limiting values. I keep asking you show me such a thread and you know there are none. You HAVE to LOOK at limiting values and we are nowhere near that. If this was such a big deal peoples tanks would be crashing all the time. Phyl and you know who she is, who just did a 95 % water and saw what Carlo, the corals loved it.

But it's mostly the other processes going on in the tank that indirectly affect the corals and their food sources.


Sure is funny how you state this after it is explained to you but not found in any of your other posts till now. You do this allot.

And usually when you do large WC the DO levels go up not down as there is less oxidation going on and a decrease in the BOD.

[melev]

Originally posted by jdieck
IMO droping Nitrates fast down to the point were critters are still not limited by Nitrates is safe beyond that point I would go slow.
Having said that the method of droping nitrates may affect other parameters that in turn may affect the critters, not the nitrate but the most usual is drop in oxygen and/or trace elements and or some organics due to the sudden increase in skimming performance.

I had a thought on this post.

With improved skimmer performance, I'd have to believe organics would drop for sure, but I doubt oxygen would drop since the skimmer is a massive airstone in the system, right?

If I do water changes regularly (ugh), I'd be replacing trace elements regularly. I might as well start up the RO/DI system and collect 55g today.

[jdieck]

Originally posted by melev
I had a thought on this post.

With improved skimmer performance, I'd have to believe organics would drop for sure, but I doubt oxygen would drop since the skimmer is a massive airstone in the system, right?

If I do water changes regularly (ugh), I'd be replacing trace elements regularly. I might as well start up the RO/DI system and collect 55g today.

Because Oxygen dissolution depends do not only depends on surface agitation, there are instances (specially at night) were bacterial development may consume it faster than it can dissolve into the water. In any case it might not be an issue unless circulation gets restricted somehow.
On the depletion and alternative to increased water changes might be the use of trace elements supplement.

[melev]

I tested nitrates today: < 30ppm, but still more than 25ppm.

[cayars]

Boomer have you searched like I've recommended you search since you don't believe me? Do you want me to do your homework for you?

Carlo

[Boomer]

No, I don't need to and should not have to Carlo or any one else. Show me a link with NO3- like Mrac's and where there was a crash. You always seem to post stuff and then rarely give give a link of the claimed info. It has nothing to do with home work so don't be playing that game. I or others should not have to go do a search if you have already have a link or know were it is. That is pretty much common practice here, give the link to back up ones remarks, if such is stated somewhere, otherwise it is just so much hear-say. Randy would ask you flat out "got a link" . I have asked a number of times for it. So, I ask why won't you give it.


And as far as me

If this was such a big deal peoples tanks would be crashing all the time[

Link....from me...... this is pretty much very common knowledge on any forum. Just like you should not be using tap water......do I need a link for that ? But some do use tap-water and do fine.

No none is saying that a large WC change has never crashed tank. As I said before we have had more complaints on other issues 100x more than any WC causing problems. Randy has often has mentioned here and in his artilcxe on WC and sup addition articles 30 % WC /M. For you that is way to large.

Here is my link

The normally encountered differences in calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, nitrate, phosphate, silica, pH, etc., are unlikely to unduly stress organisms during water changes up to 30-50% using natural seawater or aerated artificial seawater, in my opinion.


Water Changes in Reef Aquaria

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

[melev]

Originally posted by melev
I tested nitrates today: < 30ppm, but still more than 25ppm.

Same level to report.

Did a water change (55g) last night.

I'm cleaning out the skimmer cup & riser daily, and it is very slimy compared to what normally comes out.

ORP has dropped after each dosing, but comes up again. Current reading at the moment is 297. The tank tends to be around 310 daily, and I just fed an hour ago.

Phosphate was .03 (Salifert), and I'm not running any type of GFO for the past 2 or 3 weeks.

[Billybeau1]

Yes Marc, I remember when I tried this stuff, ORP would tumble like a rock when dosing but would recover within 8 to 12 hrs or so.

Keep us posted.

[siskiou]

I just came across this thread and wanted to relate my AZNO3 experience.
It seems I'm the only one who ran into this problem.

I started dosing my 120G as instructed on the bottle and everything seemed okay until about day 9, when I noticed my soft corals looking distressed.
The water had a strong chemical smell, reminiscent of bleach. I thought some equipment was fouling up the water, and immediately took my sump offline, dumped dechlorinator into the water (that did help with the smell) and went off to the LFS for large quantities of pre-mixed saltwater.
Over the next two days I did massive water changes and everything recovered.
Tested all my equipment separately in a tub, but found nothing wrong.
I added one more dose of AZNO3 after people telling me that it could not be the culprit, but had the same effect again.

I still have most of the bottle left, but am too scared to try again.

[melev]

I smelled the solution today coincidentally, and it has no odor at all. I won't taste it though.

[siskiou]

Yeah, I have no idea what the stuff reacted with, but it was definitely the AZNO3.
I would have loved for it to work.

[Billybeau1]

Aw come on Marc....... Where is your pioneering spirit ?

[skydancer]

Originally posted by melev
I smelled the solution today coincidentally, and it has no odor at all. I won't taste it though.

Which day of treatment are you on?

[melev]

Today completes 16 days of treatment, but it was at a slower pace then recommended on the bottle. I opened up my second bottle today (out of three total).

[skydancer]

Great, then you 're past the "9 day danger"
See you on Wed. I'll bring you my botlles then.

[iantoh]

hi there Carlo,

not meaning to add fuel to the disagreement, but i stand by Boomer's comments on the waterchange issue.

think of it this way, if youre stuck in a room filled with potentially poisonous smoke, would opening the windows or running out of the room into clean fresh air cause you any damage or concern to you? it wouldnt, but more likely bring immense relief and do you a world of good.

now relating this back to water changes, fresh NSW typically registers below 0.5ppm of nitrates, and if you grant that this is the typical nitrate level in the ocean's reefs, then replacing water that has elevated levels of nutrients (i.e nitrates, phosphates) should only do the reef inhabitants good, because its a reversion to parameters which they are used to, or genetically predisposed to by nature. of course, this assumes the water replacing what you take out in a water change is cleaner and has better parameters. it would be like a breathe of fresh air vis a vis my analogy above.

I have never witnessed a situation where a water change with fresh NSW or a good salt mix of proper salinity levels causing problems. if nitrates may be likened to a pollutant like smoke, that is toxic at elevated levels, i seriously wonder the logic behind slowly lowering the amount of pollutant.

on the other hand, if for example, you had lots of algaes thriving on elevated levels of nitrate, and a large water change with clean water suddenly limited the continued growth of these algae such that they die enmass and consequently cause issues by deleting oxygen levels as they breakdown or release spores, etc, then i guess that truly is a concern, but nothing which cannot easily be prevented or circumvented, and which though sparked by the water change, is more an extenuating circumstance affecting the result of a water change, rather than a general and standard reaction.

another thing i'd like to ask, if, for example, you come home to find your tank in a state of crashing or semi-crashing. what do you think is the safest thing youre likely to do to help save your reef? more likely than not, i think most people would opt for a large water change. and the history of RC and many other boards shows that more good than harm has been achieved with water changes.

well, pls do share with us the references supporting your claim as we could all stand to learn from differing viewpoints.

ian

ps: sorry to side-track from the main subject of this thread, being the use of AZ-NO3

[cthetoy]

So the AZNO3 lowers phosphates as well?

[melev]

Apparently, although that was not my primary goal nor was it an expected event. I can't promise that it will do the same in another person's tank.

For now, I would stick to seeing how this works with what it promises.

[cayars]

Originally posted by iantoh
hi there Carlo,

not meaning to add fuel to the disagreement, but i stand by Boomer's comments on the waterchange issue.

think of it this way, if youre stuck in a room filled with potentially poisonous smoke, would opening the windows or running out of the room into clean fresh air cause you any damage or concern to you? it wouldnt, but more likely bring immense relief and do you a world of good.

Hello iantoh, Consider yourself in the majority. I don't think people realize all that goes on in the tank. They just assume nitrates are bad. Let me see if I might be able to clear up some things without getting to technical or to long winded.

I think what you gave is a poor analogy. Smoke is harmful and not good for living things - non that I know of anyway. This is NOT the case for nitrates. They are one of the 3 core building blocks needed with carbon and phosphates being the other. Some SPS & LPS corals are known to use nitrate levels up and past 40 ppm to fuel their growth. There is also algae and other fauna in the tank that will readily use the nitrates when they are there.

When a tank has a normal routine of running (including water changes) there is a level of normal nitrates in the tank that everything adjusts to (the good and the bad stuff). When you drastically reduce or limit this one thing you upset the balance of the nutrients in the tank.

now relating this back to water changes, fresh NSW typically registers below 0.5ppm of nitrates, and if you grant that this is the typical nitrate level in the ocean's reefs, then replacing water that has elevated levels of nutrients (i.e nitrates, phosphates) should only do the reef inhabitants good, because its a reversion to parameters which they are used to, or genetically predisposed to by nature. of course, this assumes the water replacing what you take out in a water change is cleaner and has better parameters. it would be like a breathe of fresh air vis a vis my analogy above.

This to me is like saying you are 100 foot down diving and are slowly running out of air. Instead of slowing ascending you quickly swim to the surface so you have fresh air to breath. You didn't adjust properly. What happens? This is a closer analogy IMHO of nitrates to corals/tanks.

I have never witnessed a situation where a water change with fresh NSW or a good salt mix of proper salinity levels causing problems. if nitrates may be likened to a pollutant like smoke, that is toxic at elevated levels, i seriously wonder the logic behind slowly lowering the amount of pollutant.

That's the thing. Nitrates themselves AREN'T toxic. They have never been proven toxic to normal tank creatures at reasonable amounts of say 100 ppm. It's not a pollutant but a "food" source so to speak. It should be controlled just like any other source of "need" a coral has.

If your alkalinity was at 6 dKH would you drastically bump it up to 10/11 dKH or would you slowly build it up? Not really any different.

on the other hand, if for example, you had lots of algaes thriving on elevated levels of nitrate, and a large water change with clean water suddenly limited the continued growth of these algae such that they die enmass and consequently cause issues by deleting oxygen levels as they breakdown or release spores, etc, then i guess that truly is a concern, but nothing which cannot easily be prevented or circumvented, and which though sparked by the water change, is more an extenuating circumstance affecting the result of a water change, rather than a general and standard reaction.

Yes that is true. All the fauna in the tank needs to adjust also. This is why I don't like water changes of more then 20% and usually will only recommend a 10% water change. I'd rather see weekly 10% then biweekly 20% for the reason of keeping things more stable in the tank while removing DOCs.

another thing i'd like to ask, if, for example, you come home to find your tank in a state of crashing or semi-crashing. what do you think is the safest thing you're likely to do to help save your reef? more likely than not, i think most people would opt for a large water change. and the history of RC and many other boards shows that more good than harm has been achieved with water changes.

Completely different situation. No doubt, an emergency is just that, and you do what you need to do. What is the worse of 2 evils so to speak? If something was accidentally dropped in the tank that could kill things you quickly put in loads of carbon and start changing water for example. In this case the overall health of the system isn't important. It's keeping them alive. You can nurse them back to health later.

well, pls do share with us the references supporting your claim as we could all stand to learn from differing viewpoints.

ian

ps: sorry to side-track from the main subject of this thread, being the use of AZ-NO3

Without getting long and hijacking the thread. I'll leave a few tidbits of things to think about:

When DOC compounds contain nitrogen, they are mineralized by bacteria present in the tank, into ammonia. The ammonia is utilized by plants, leading to excessive growth, or oxidized by nitrifying bacteria to the final product, nitrate, which may accumulate in the aquarium. That is why water changes are usually advocated. Many people think that water changes are designed to lower the nitrate concentration. While this may occur to some extent, the real reason is to lower the DOC content of the water. Since nitrate and DOC concentrations are sometimes directly related, and nitrate is easy to measure, it is often used as a yardstick to determine when to make a water change. In reef aquariums with higher diversity of organism the FW, DOC may accumulate while nitrate does not or vice versa.

We typically hear/say that coral reefs are "low nutrient" ecosystems. Strictly speaking, this is incorrect and leads a lot of folks to problems in the hobby. Coral reefs are poor in DISSOLVED INORGANIC nutrients (ammonia, nitrate, phosphate) in the water column over the reef. Coral reefs are very, very rich in a variety of organic forms of nutrients--zooplankton, detritus, algae, fish, corals, bacteria, etc. Coral reefs are not nurient poor--they have lots of living and dead organic sources of nutrients--they are just poor in those inorganic nutrients.

Since we don't have the vast ocean to replace our water volume on a continual basis there is something of a contradiction between these two levels in our tanks. Corals on the reef have an abundant supply of nitrates all the time even though the levels are low. In our tanks they both tend to be higher or lower together. The corals adapt to this.

The Reef Aquarium Vol 3 pg 175 (book many will have) "In fact, elevated nitrate levels as high as 10 ppm nitrate nitrogen (approximately = 40 ppm nitrate ion) may encourage more rapid growth of both soft and stony corals (D. Stuber, pers. comm.)."

The above (and also other studies) show the corals do use nitrates to their advantage. Now knowing that the corals can use it and all the fauna, algae and other forms of coral food sources in the tank can use it, why would you want to yank the nitrates out from under them???

If you slowly lower the levels (10-15% decrease at a time shouldn't cause a problem) over time the tank and creatures in it get a chance to adjust to the new levels which doesn't cause a major upset to it's natural running condition.

While I do especially think nitrate levels should be watched closely when you get to 1 ppm or under (to make sure some is available). I also think it wise to watch the levels at any range and work slowly when reducing them as Marc is doing here.

If you want some good reading on what happens when nitrates and phosphates (two of the building blocks) are lowered quickly some of the posts/threads on the Zeovit forum are especially good reads. You can also find some good info here at RC if you look for posts from Jörg Kokott (Germany-Marine Biologist) & Jens Kallmeyer (Germany- Geologist, PhD). They both have a solid understanding of these conditions and their posts are well written and easy to read/understand.

If we really want to get into this in detail we should probably start a new thread and not hijack this one.

Carlo

PS I've never said you can't do large water changes and get away with it. You surely can do it. I just don't think it's the wisest move. Every time you do a large water change you create something of an "upset" and an "unstable" system if you will.

[cayars]

melev, you need to up your dosage of the product a bit more. When/if your nitrates stall you should bump it a bit more. I believe you were planning on doing this anyway, but I thought I'd mention it.

ORP drops because you are adding a carbon source to the tank which causes the bacteria to populate quicker and this uses up O2 which causes the ORP to drop.

siskiou, for whatever reason you were dosing to much of the product (not saying you weren't following directions). In general when adding any carbon source and you get what you saw which was probably due to a bacteria bloom, you stop the current dosage, wait out two extra days and then continue at about 3/4 where you were at. If it happens again you do the same, wait out two extra days and continue at about 3/4 of the last dose. This allows the system to stabilize to the level of the carbon addition. You also want to keep a close eye on your alkalinity level and keep it at 8.5-9 dKH for normal salts or 9.5-10 dKH for salts high in Borate like Seachem or Crystal Sea salts.

Carlo

[siskiou]

Thanks, Carlo.
I just wonder why the "bleachy smell" and it responding to dechlorinator.
There was no cloudiness in the water, which is one thing they warn about on the bottle.
And I'm absolutely positive I even underdosed a little (didn't take the sump into account, just the 120G tank volume).