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  #26  
Old 09/23/2007, 06:21 PM
melev melev is offline
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Day 2

Dosed 20 drops.

Tomorrow I'm supposed to dose 40 drops, but I'll just repeat todays dosage so as to follow the slower method.

That was interesting about higher alkalinity vs. high nitrates. My alk tends to be around 10 or higher.
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  #27  
Old 09/23/2007, 07:19 PM
Boomer Boomer is offline
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Almost exactly true Carlo and you reading into things again that are not there. Those levels Marc has are way beyond any affect as far as Nitrate up take goes and any limiting effect for any form of marine life using nitrate. Excessive levels way above any normal or even above normal liming will not be affect buy rapid drops. We are not talking here about dropping them to ZERO, another issue. If you want to argue 1ppm, as being excessive and dropping them quickly them maybe. And remember that data in the article is from lab tests and is not from full blown reef tanks, another whole issue.

As far as WC goes 1,000's of people have done large multiple WC as I, Randy or many others have suggested with no such effects as you have claimed. 1000's of people do 25-30 % WC / m and is what Randy often suggests to keep ions in balance for sup additions. Your probably were doing something wrong if you had such problems. You need to go back to Randy's article and LOOK at the NO3- levels he is discussing, we are talking for corals NO3 that even <1 ppm is excessive.

Excessively high nitrates are not good for corals and has been shown many times. I have yet seen any tank have problems or even someone mention having problems from dropping high nitrate levels other than yours unless it is a Marco algae tank. I see little of any real problematic algae in his tank.

Nitrate is not the only carbon source that plants and animals use and they are rarely limited in a reef tank for carbon sources. And looking at a pic of his tank does not tell anyone anything about the health of his tank.

So changing this level fast wipes out their food source and a quick die-off can contribute to other problems which aren't easy to identify

No they do not unless they are limited. And most tanks are by far not limited with a large WC. And Marc dropping his NO3- from 30 to say 10 or 5 ppm will do nothing. And as far as AZNO3 -
or the addition of Vodka they may be more of a problem if you are not careful, more than any large water change, as they fuel bacterial growth and if fueled enough will bring on rapid bacterial growth on fish and can eve kill them. This was recently shown at MACNA.


That is a pretty high Alk Marc, like 4.5 meq / l

Last edited by Boomer; 09/23/2007 at 07:29 PM.
  #28  
Old 09/23/2007, 08:11 PM
melev melev is offline
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Boomer, according to my Salifert kit 10 dKH is 3.6 meq/L, so I'm thinking you mean that I would have to keep my tank at 13 dKH to not have a nitrate issue with some SPS? I'll just work on lowering these so my coral can be happier.
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  #29  
Old 09/23/2007, 09:38 PM
cayars cayars is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boomer
[B]Almost exactly true Carlo and you reading into things again that are not there. Those levels Marc has are way beyond any affect as far as Nitrate up take goes and any limiting effect for any form of marine life using nitrate. Excessive levels way above any normal or even above normal liming will not be affect buy rapid drops. We are not talking here about dropping them to ZERO, another issue. If you want to argue 1ppm, as being excessive and dropping them quickly them maybe. And remember that data in the article is from lab tests and is not from full blown reef tanks, another whole issue.
I mentioned the levels being very low but pointed out I've also read other literature with much higher levels and they agree with my observations of corals showing stress with a rapid nitrate drop. You can't argue with MY OBSERVATIONS. You mentioned it will have no affect on the tank but it does affect many different things including some types of corals that actually like the higher nitrates. Remember not all corals want low nitrates. I'm not even saying he has any of those types of corals but the statement you made just isn't true.

Quote:
As far as WC goes 1,000's of people have done large multiple WC as I, Randy or many others have suggested with no such effects as you have claimed. 1000's of people do 25-30 % WC / m and is what Randy often suggests to keep ions in balance for sup additions. Your probably were doing something wrong if you had such problems. You need to go back to Randy's article and LOOK at the NO3- levels he is discussing, we are talking for corals NO3 that even <1 ppm is excessive.
Do lots of people do this (large water changes) and get away with it. YOU BET, but people do dumb things all the time and get away with it. That in itself doesn't mean it the best thing to do. While not the same, it's much like dosing vodka in a slow ramp up period and then completely cutting if off. The tanks needs/wants to slowly adjust to the new carbon/nitrogen level, not have it abruptly yanked out from under it.

It's like the old saying "good things happen slowly, bad things happen fast".

Quote:
Excessively high nitrates are not good for corals and has been shown many times. I have yet seen any tank have problems or even someone mention having problems from dropping high nitrate levels other than yours unless it is a Marco algae tank. I see little of any real problematic algae in his tank.
Just because you haven't seen it happen doesn't mean others haven't. It's your opinion just like my opinion. There are also studies showing some corals like elevated levels and others that show little problem with high nitrates as long as the alk is kept high. It's neither here nor there what they like. The point I'm simple saying is adjust your levels slowly in either direction up or down.

Forget chemistry for a moment and think biological. What happens to the tank when nitrates rise, what happens when they lower?

Most people learn and get "move slowly" with changes to alk, ph, calcium, mag, strontium, iron, iodine, etc but fail to apply the same logic to nitrates. Tanks need time to adjust to EVERYTHING, not just the things we usually think of as "being good for the tank".

Salt manufactures know this and that's why most of them tell you right on the bucket you shouldn't exceed 10% a week or 25% biweekly water changes. Think about that. Why would a salt manufacture tell you not to exceed an amount? If you do they sell more product. They know it's not good for you tank. Not because of the additions (they should be close) but because of delusion effects. To much to fast is not good.

Carlo
  #30  
Old 09/24/2007, 12:43 PM
cthetoy cthetoy is offline
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Melev,

Keep us updated and your results. I too have high nitrates because of my heavy bioload. I tried sugar and vodka and it doesnt work. I was gong to try Azno3 as well.

Have you considered a sulphur dinitrator? Most people I talked to says it works very well. A lot of large European aquariums uses a sulphur denitrator as well. With you skills you can actually make one. I'm saving for one right now
  #31  
Old 09/24/2007, 02:46 PM
cayars cayars is offline
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That's my preference to (Nitrate reactor). Although once you get to ZERO on nitrates AND solve the nutrient problem (assuming you can), you end up with a piece of equipment you don't need.

One reason I happen to like nitrate reactors is because they drop your nitrates slowly.

You can use just about any calcium reactor as a nitrate reactor, just don't use the CO2 stuff on it and fill it with different media.

Carlo
  #32  
Old 09/24/2007, 05:10 PM
Boomer Boomer is offline
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I mentioned the levels being very low but pointed out I've also read other literature with much higher levels and they agree with my observations of corals showing stress with a rapid nitrate drop.

Not at the levels that Marc has and we are taking Marc's tank. Cutting his levels in half will have no effect.

You can't argue with MY OBSERVATIONS

Sure I can anyone can, it may have not been nitrate. Nitrate is not the only carbon source in a reef tank. It have may have been something else. Your are assuming it was NO3-


Remember not all corals want low nitrates.

They also don't want 30 ppm, 15 ppm or even 5 or 10 ppm. And not all corals want high NO3- either and what are you calling high for corals ? It is not 15 ppm.

Do lots of people do this (large water changes) and get away with it. YOU BET, but people do dumb things all the time and get away with it.

No one is arguing that. I have not seen anyone bring up such issues as you claim. Your remarks are that if something happens don't do it. If the is the case all should stop using GAC, Activated Alumina , Ozone, Purple-Up, sugar, Vodka, nitrate reactors or a host of others that way out beat any posts on reducing nitrates and I don't even remember seeing such a post here or any place I can think of on what you claim to have seen. I'm not saying it has not happen.



That in itself doesn't mean it the best thing to do.

That in itself does not mean it is the wrong thing to do either.

Tanks need time to adjust to EVERYTHING, not just the things we usually think of as "being good for the tank".

That depends on what it is. As I said you are one of many and many do or have done some large changes with no issue. We don't' base things on just Carlo's incident/s.


Salt manufactures know this and that's why most of them tell you right on the bucket you shouldn't exceed 10% a week or 25% biweekly water changes. Think about that

I don't's have to, all I have to look at is what has been done by thousands. Did you ever think they may just be trying to get you to buy more salt ? Many also tell you to keep the Sg ~ 1.023, do you do that ? I would love to see people do 10% a week or 25% biweekly water changes. But many do 25-30% / m and that would fall in-line with your drastic NO3- reduction, if they are having a rise in NO3- and it is just not seen. Large WC are not uncommon by far. Or multi -WC in a short time. Again NO3- is not the only carbon source.


To much to fast is not good.

And the opposite is also true.

That depends on what it is.
  #33  
Old 09/24/2007, 06:35 PM
melev melev is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by cthetoy
Melev,

Keep us updated and your results. I too have high nitrates because of my heavy bioload. I tried sugar and vodka and it doesnt work. I was gong to try Azno3 as well.

Have you considered a sulphur dinitrator? Most people I talked to says it works very well. A lot of large European aquariums uses a sulphur denitrator as well. With you skills you can actually make one. I'm saving for one right now
Since they cost so much, I haven't considered it. We were talking about these on DFWMAS just recently.

I'll keep posting my results. Dosing another 20 drops for today.
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  #34  
Old 09/24/2007, 06:38 PM
melev melev is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by cayars
You can use just about any calcium reactor as a nitrate reactor, just don't use the CO2 stuff on it and fill it with different media.

Carlo
The way it was explained to me, you only need one pump. Calcium reactors have two: recirculation and feed pump.
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  #35  
Old 09/24/2007, 06:54 PM
t-bone2 t-bone2 is offline
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keep an eye on your anemonies ive read several different feed backs on the product this stuff is great but the anenomies cant take it good luck
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  #36  
Old 09/24/2007, 07:33 PM
cthetoy cthetoy is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by melev
The way it was explained to me, you only need one pump. Calcium reactors have two: recirculation and feed pump.
I think you need two pumps - one to feed the denitrator and the second one for recirculation just like a CA reactor. You can use one pump if you gravity feed it or tee it off your main pump. The only thing missing is a bubble counter and the co2 tank/regulator. The drip rate is slightly faster than a CA reactor. One advantage of a sulphur denitrator is that you do not have to feed it as the bacteria feeds on the nitrates/sulphur.

Last edited by cthetoy; 09/24/2007 at 07:53 PM.
  #37  
Old 09/24/2007, 07:51 PM
cthetoy cthetoy is offline
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Sorry, Double post
  #38  
Old 09/24/2007, 09:23 PM
Dr Begalke Dr Begalke is offline
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The second pump you are thinking about is probably a dosing pump to dose a carbon source (like ethanol) to the denitrator.. I don't think those are necessary though. you can use a syringe.

For a typical DYI coil model, you just need one pump... super slow flow... creates the anerobic environment for the bacteria... just about any air tight container would work.

I was going to try and build one out of a phosban reactor and some dead LR rubble on my 55, but I tried using AZNO3 first and didn't need to.


http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/nit...a/aa092702.htm
  #39  
Old 09/25/2007, 12:59 PM
cayars cayars is offline
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Here's a pretty good thread on denitrators on our local forum (NJReefers.org) http://www.njreefers.org/joomla/inde...&topic=4537.15

It's a 4 page thread but the link above starts on page 2 where it gets good. I'm Carlo there not Cayars.

I even talked about making one from Coralife Calcium Reactors which are available in 250 and 500 models for well less money then any typical nitrate reactor you will buy commercially. Technique applies to just about any calcium reactor. I like recirc designs myself however.

Give it a read and post any question you have here and I'd be more then happy to help. Or start a new thread and PM me the address.

Carlo
  #40  
Old 09/27/2007, 08:18 PM
cayars cayars is offline
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Marc, what do your nitrates look like now?

Carlo
  #41  
Old 09/27/2007, 09:33 PM
Reefflections Reefflections is offline
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Hey Cthetoy,
I saw what you posted here about the this reactor.I just set mine up 2 days ago.I got the Sul.reactor from Koralin with the media.I'm feeding it with a Aqua lift pump,the drip goes in the bottom of the feed line of the Cal reactor.It's a closed loop,with the Sulphur feed line.It's and old MRC calcium reactor.I take the PVC pipe out of the center of it.And drilled holes,making a spray bar inside.So the Sulphur stays in the reactor a long time.And hoping the Sul will eat up the ARM media.But I haven't saw any post as what I've done.As for the closed loop theory.As for maintaining ALK,Cal levels just yet.It's been running only 2 days,operation is doing fine.I'm looking now for tests results as I go.But it takes time for the Sulphur to kick in.Do you know anyone that has done this long term.As for the Sul vs Cal media?I would think being it's a closed loop,Eff drip rate would be more stronger brew here? I'm looking to get low Nit.and reasonable Alk and Cal readings.Only time will tell.Maybe some folks can chime in here,that's been doing this long term.But the guy I got it from it did lower his Traits.And was very happy with the reactor.Other than he broke down his tank.
Thanks Guys
  #42  
Old 09/28/2007, 08:13 PM
Boomer Boomer is offline
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Yeah Marc how are you doing ? Don't leave us hanging Is the AZNO3 working as planned ? Or we all hope or you wont' talk to us again
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  #43  
Old 09/29/2007, 12:04 AM
Billybeau1 Billybeau1 is offline
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This stuff is suppose to be a 30 day treatment. He just started on the 22nd so it's a little early to expect results.
  #44  
Old 09/29/2007, 12:55 AM
cayars cayars is offline
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Understood but it's kind of cool to see if possibly the levels continue to rise before they fall. Just a more informed data set.

Besides we want to keep the thread going.

Carlo
  #45  
Old 09/29/2007, 01:12 AM
Billybeau1 Billybeau1 is offline
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Whats why me and Boomer bumped it.
  #46  
Old 09/29/2007, 01:55 AM
jdieck jdieck is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Billybeau1
Whats why me and Boomer bumped it.
What? Who?
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  #47  
Old 09/29/2007, 02:02 AM
Billybeau1 Billybeau1 is offline
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Hi JD.
  #48  
Old 09/29/2007, 10:19 AM
Boomer Boomer is offline
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Who is on first base Where is on 3rd base
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An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.
  #49  
Old 09/29/2007, 11:26 AM
Billybeau1 Billybeau1 is offline
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Ah the morning after.

I see I'm taking typing lessons from Boomer again.
  #50  
Old 09/29/2007, 05:37 PM
jdieck jdieck is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boomer
Who is on first base Where is on 3rd base
Also the donkey usually goes ahead of the cart
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