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  #26  
Old 12/14/2007, 11:57 PM
BigSkyBart BigSkyBart is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by O'Man
Double post
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  #27  
Old 12/15/2007, 12:16 AM
emilye2 emilye2 is offline
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Catdoc-I'm honestly not trying to be a smart aleck here...And since it's the written word and not face to face I want to be sure you know I'm not being sarcastic, I'm honestly curious. How do wild dogs (wolves, coyotes, etc) or feral dogs manage to handle things like e. coli?
And for those who are considering it, there is always the option of running the meats through a meat grinder before feeding. Sadly, most raw feeding advocates are all or nothing, if you aren't feeding raw then you are poisoning your dog. They see raw food as the be all and end all of health problems in dogs. I can see the benefits (my beagles teeth improved drastically in just one month), but honestly their coats look just as good on a high quality kibble as they did on raw.
It just seems to me that there is enough logic behind the raw diet (after all you don't see them feeding tigers in the zoo Meow Mix in a bowl) that it shouldn't be dismissed across the board by vets.
I have a friend who's aussie has severe arthritis in her elbows. Not much you can do for that but manage it. At 6 she's got a lot of years ahead of her so avoiding meds until absolutely necessary is a priority. She's given her a coated aspirin at night when needed and has her on the highest dose of MSM and glucosamine she can get. She recently switched to a grain free diet and even with several days of vigorous exercise hasn't needed to give her an aspirin. The ONLY thing that's changed in her environment has been the diet. There is just so much out there that isn't known about canine nutrition that it bothers me when something that seems to come from a natural place is so quickly dismissed as an option.
It's late and I'm not sure I'm making sense (Sadly I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the hour...)but I'm not trying to offend or question anyone's education. It's just another area I'm always trying to learn more about. Because I think that just like in humans, nutrition effects behavior, and canine behavior is my job!
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  #28  
Old 12/15/2007, 12:23 AM
marie marie is offline
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Quote:
How do wild dogs (wolves, coyotes, etc) or feral dogs manage to handle things like e. coli?
How many 13/14 yr old wild/feral dogs do you know of, running around in the wild?

I have been feeding nutros ultra for the last year and my shih tzus haven't had any "summer" allergies this year. A big bonus
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  #29  
Old 12/15/2007, 12:27 AM
emilye2 emilye2 is offline
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Not many but I assume most of that is due to disease such as distemper and lepto. Malnutrition, predation, accident. Weakened systems from flea infestation, tick illnesses, internal parasites....
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In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog. - Edward Hoagland
  #30  
Old 12/15/2007, 12:35 AM
marie marie is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by emilye2
Not many but I assume most of that is due to disease such as distemper and lepto. Malnutrition, predation, accident. Weakened systems from flea infestation, tick illnesses, internal parasites....
But thats my point, why are we trying to copy the diet of wild dogs when the diets they are getting now are allowing them to live happily past the age of 14 and research into dogs dietary needs is making the food we feed better and better.

Edit, IMO the risks of feeding a raw diet far out way the benefits in my mind and I don't think they have found any loss of nutrition if the meat is at least cooked
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  #31  
Old 12/15/2007, 12:44 AM
jpfelix jpfelix is offline
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my kitties love fresh venison!
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  #32  
Old 12/15/2007, 09:07 AM
jennibee13 jennibee13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by andrewsmart
dont feed your dogs chocolate. grapes or rasins.

well maybe my yellow is a miracle of science, but, one year we had 3 of those big assortment bags of candy in the closet waiting for halloween, well he managed to get in there, he ate every single piece of candy, well except for one peanut m&m ..........and he was smart enuff to tear them out of the small individual packages, his stomach looked like he was pregnant, never had a side effect, so, im a bit skeptical on the chocolate thing, altho id heard it b4 this..............
  #33  
Old 12/15/2007, 09:19 AM
Satori Satori is offline
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I would think it has something to do with how fresh is the kill, and where has it been since being dead? For example, a wild dog might kill or scavenge an animal, but that animal has been laying in the same spot in a field. I would imagine that raw foods you buy are transported from the kill site, packaged, shipped, stored, etc. All of those steps offer a chance for contamination and the length of time between kill and consume offers time for manifestation. Just my thoughts though, I really don't know anything about how raw diets typically work with pets.
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  #34  
Old 12/15/2007, 12:41 PM
cichlid nutz cichlid nutz is offline
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We have a staffie that did the same "chocolate hunter" routine as jennibee had also with no side effects (even though she ate the foil). On the other side we feed Nutro Max Natural and find it does wonders for their skin and coat. Whats bad about raisins and grapes??
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  #35  
Old 12/15/2007, 02:44 PM
catdoc catdoc is offline
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Oh, you've got to be kidding me!!! That post I'd been working on for an hour is gone??
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  #36  
Old 12/15/2007, 03:07 PM
catdoc catdoc is offline
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by emilye2
Catdoc-I'm honestly not trying to be a smart aleck here...And since it's the written word and not face to face I want to be sure you know I'm not being sarcastic, I'm honestly curious. How do wild dogs (wolves, coyotes, etc) or feral dogs manage to handle things like e. coli?


Second attempt at a reply, I can't believe I lost the first draft! Emily, no offense taken and it's a subject that triggers pretty powerful opinions on both sides so an open dialogue is good. I'll do my best to present the basis of my decision-making.

As for how wild canids handle E. coli and other pathogens in their diets: some die, the tough ones survive and evolution selects for them. Weak immune systems don't last long enough to be reproduced. On the other hand, humans have spent the past several thousand years selecting dogs for breeding based on coat colors, size/conformation of dog, ability to chase/herd/fight...not for strength of their immune systems. Domestic dogs are 15 to 100 thousand years removed from their wild ancestors, considerable outward changes have been effected since then. Would it be surprising to find that their internal workings aren't identical too?


It just seems to me that there is enough logic behind the raw diet (after all you don't see them feeding tigers in the zoo Meow Mix in a bowl) that it shouldn't be dismissed across the board by vets.


The raw meat being fed to the tiger does have nutritional supplements in it, so it wouldn't pass the rigors of a true RAW or BARF devotee. The diet also has been constructed and analyzed, and if needed, reformulated for the individual's needs by a veterinary nutritionist. It's not just whatever looks natural, but a very precise feeding. I wouldn't want the tiger eating it in my house anyway, the risk of a food-borne infection to me wouldn't be worth it even if it is the tiger's natural diet. (Must be why I don't have a pet tiger...LOL) Also, the tiger in the zoo is genetically identical to the tiger in the wild, there hasn't been any human selection/domestication to change it so I think it's safe to say that his body is designed to tolerate the same diet as a wild tiger, unless he has other health concerns. (They manage tigers in kidney failure, with arthritis, and other health problems in the zoo although in the wild, these animals wouldn't even survive so even the zoo's diet of raw meats isn't "natural".)


I have a friend who's aussie has severe arthritis in her elbows. Not much you can do for that but manage it. At 6 she's got a lot of years ahead of her so avoiding meds until absolutely necessary is a priority. She's given her a coated aspirin at night when needed and has her on the highest dose of MSM and glucosamine she can get. She recently switched to a grain free diet and even with several days of vigorous exercise hasn't needed to give her an aspirin. The ONLY thing that's changed in her environment has been the diet.


That's interesting. I wonder if maybe there is a food allergy at play here? Has she compared the protein sources from the commercial food to the new grain-free diet? It may have been a beef/chicken/egg/?? allergy and the new food lacks the allergen. I am not aware of food allergy causing arthritis, but I can follow the logic that the inflammation could be the trigger. She may want to compare labels and see if there are any meat sources that differ as I've seen the strongest allergic reactions to the meat sources. If she's really brave, then she could challenge the dog with single sources of protein to see which one specifically is the trigger.


There is just so much out there that isn't known about canine nutrition that it bothers me when something that seems to come from a natural place is so quickly dismissed as an option.


"Natural" isn't the problem, "uncooked" and "imbalanced" are the bigger concerns. "Natural" isn't inherently safer (digitalis flowers are natural but deadly toxic), healthier (feral dogs have shorter lifespans than housedogs), or without risks (raw meats can be carriers of parasites and bacteria). I think the key is, no matter what you choose, that you ensure that it is as nutritionally balanced as possible. If you choose to feed a non-commercial food, be sure that the recipe is nutritionally complete and not just "natural".

My first version was so much more eloquent...
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  #37  
Old 12/15/2007, 03:13 PM
Gawain1974 Gawain1974 is offline
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Nice well-thought out response, Christy.

Personally, I think it's bad enough that a dog licks its own butt and then tries to lick me, I don't want to think about getting raw chicken kisses on top of that.

I had a course supervisor that had three beautiful yellow labs. She'd feed them frozen raw chicken breasts as a treat. Well, they got sick off of the chicken...all three of them. We showed up at her house while she was taking a scoop shovel to clean the fecal explosions on her white carpet.
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  #38  
Old 12/15/2007, 03:20 PM
catdoc catdoc is offline
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Chocolate is toxic to pets, but the degree of toxicity varies based on what kind of chocolate. Bakers chocolate>dark chocolate>milk chocolate. Also, the size of the dog determines the amount that'll produce toxic signs. An 80-lb dog would need to eat a few lbs of milk chocolate to see toxicity from the chocolate, you'd probably see GI upset from the sugar and fats first!

A rough guideline from the ASPCA poison control hotline: Less than 1 oz of milk chocolate/lb is potentially lethal to dogs; for baking (unsweetened) chocolate, less than 0.1 oz/lb is potentially lethal. Methylxanthines can cross the placenta and pass into the milk, so unborn or nursing offspring can be affected by chocolate toxicosis in the dam. [Dark chocolate is about 3x as toxic as milk chocolate]

Regarding raisin/grape toxicity: an unknown compound in them causes kidney failure. Some individuals appear more sensitive than others (unknown why). Toxic doses are fairly low: 1.5oz/lb for grapes and 0.22 oz/lb for raisins.
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  #39  
Old 12/15/2007, 03:33 PM
Gawain1974 Gawain1974 is offline
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I'll never forget the time my chocolate lab ate a bag of Reese's cups, wrappers and all. I didn't even realize she'd ate them until she pooped out the wrappers. Horrified, I called my vet, but he told me not to worry, that if she were gonna die from chocolate poisoning, she'd already been dead. I just had to make sure she passed all those wrappers.
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  #40  
Old 12/15/2007, 05:05 PM
marie marie is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by catdoc





My first version was so much more eloquent... [/B]
Well I'm sorry I missed it then because this one is very well said
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  #41  
Old 12/15/2007, 10:47 PM
heyfredyourhat heyfredyourhat is offline
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We have a 4 month old whippet who has been on a strict raw diet since day one...
 

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